Can someone clarify something for me, please?

[Autolycus]

Okay, so I often make my own wine, and I'm not overly concerned about the taste. It's just something to get me plastered cheaply.
Anyway, my last batch, I decided to try making sparkling wine. I won't go into too much detail cus I started a thread detailing what went wrong at the time. I'll try to post a link to it.

Here:

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f5/what-am-i-doing-wrong-here-47536/index2.html#post541839

Anyway, I'm about to start another batch of elderflower wine. The recipe I used is in the other thread, but if I remember rightly, other than the elderflowers (I'm using dried) To make 23 liters, it was 5.5kg of sugar, 1kg of sultanas, 75g of Citric acid, and It THINK 5 level teaspoons of tannin.

Wait. No, it was black tea. The 5 teaspoon is just what it said on the container the tannin was in.

Anyway, last time, before bottling, I mixed up the extra yeast and sugar. I Googled the amounts at the time, but don't remember them, left them for a day and just added them to the wine before bottling, but the yeast all just fell to the bottom right away and there is no sparkle, so I assume It died.

So, I guess my starting wine was too strong. So, this time, I want to get it right, but I have some questions:

Is there a way I can calculate the right amount of sugar for 23 liters before I even start, to have the fermentation finish at around 12% abv? I'd assume so. And I'd assume it shouldn't be too hard as I doubt the dried elderflowers are contributing much sugar and surely the sultanas are a known quantity. I normally don't worry about anything and just ferment until it's as alcoholic as possible, so this is new to me.

I have the right bottles and stoppers and cages and I've researched the whole degorging thing, or whatever it's called and it doesn't sound too hard. But, not knowing why my yeast died last time, there's obviously stuff I need to know but don't.
Does the yeast I add before bottling need to be prepared for what's to come in a weaker solution for a while? Some people are saying just dump sugar and yeast into each bottle, but that sounds like a lot of weighing. Can't I just mix up the right amount and add it BEFORE I siphon into bottles? (I guess I'd have to give it a good stir before filling each bottle)

I know I used much less tannin than the recipe called for last time, and about 50% more citric acid, because, having tasted the two individually, I know which I'd rather had more influence on the taste. Could it be the extra acid killed the yeast?

Basically I just need to know how to make sure my starting wine doesn't kill the yeast. I'll be using Lalvin EC-1118 to make the wine, probably. And I guess I'll just use the same stuff before bottling unless there's a reason not to. It's just what I happen to have handy

 

[Putterrr]

I carbonate my beer all the time in the manner you describe. I dissolve a measured amount of sugar, mix it into my racked beer and then bottle & cap. I have never had a problem with the yeast already in the mixture doing its thing.

If you are using EC-1118 you should be fine at 12%. You need to add it and immediately bottle. Don't leave it over night. Also assuming you did not add sorbate or sulphite, the yeast already in the wine should be enough to ferment the bottling sugar.

cheers

 

[seth8530]

Yep, just make sure you don't add to much sugar abd make sure the initial wine is dry to prevent bottle Bombs.

 

[Autolycus]

So, were' back to where I started. Lol. I always ferment totally dry cus I never bothered getting a hydrometer till recently, and didn't see the point in knowing the abv as long as I knew it was as high as possible.

So...I need to ferment the starting wine until all the sugar is gone...I guess so I can know exactly how much sugar the yeast I add at bottling will have to work with and my bottles don't explode, or the wine is flat.
The Lalvin yeast I added at bottling says it's good up to around 18%, and the yeast I'd used in the starting wine was a general purpose yeast that was good for 13% if I remember, so I guess it wasn't alcohol that killed it.
I suppose it's possible that I'd added stabilizer and campden tablets and God knows what else, but I'm fairly sure I never with that batch. Could be I got the batches mixed up. They weren't labelled.
Ah, well. It will be interesting to see what happens this time.

Oh, surely if I ferment to dry, the new yeast will die? So we're back to the question being, how do I calculate the amount of sugar so that the sugar in the starting wine runs out before the yeast is killed off? Or do I WANT that? Surely if the yeast in there dies from alcohol toxicity and not from having consumed all the sugar, I'm now left in the position of not knowing how much sugar is in there.

 

[richmke]

Oh, surely if I ferment to dry, the new yeast will die?

It more goes dormant than dies.

So we're back to the question being, how do I calculate the amount of sugar so that the sugar in the starting wine runs out before the yeast is killed off? Or do I WANT that?

Rarely are you looking for maximum ABV. Most yeasts are fine with the normal amount of sugar in the grape juice. Ferment to dry, and you should have enough % alcohol room left for the carbonation.

 

[Autolycus]

Rarely are you looking for maximum ABV. Most yeasts are fine with the normal amount of sugar in the grape juice. Ferment to dry, and you should have enough % alcohol room left for the carbonation.

No grapes. This is elderflower wine

 

[sour_grapes]

Is there a way I can calculate the right amount of sugar for 23 liters before I even start, to have the fermentation finish at around 12% abv? I'd assume so.

Yes! A good approximate equation relating final ABV and sugar is:

ABV=(starting SG - final SG)*131.

Let assume your wine will ferment down to a final SG of 0.995. (You can assume a different value, like 1.000 or 0.992, but it won't change the answer much.) Then, you can find the starting SG as

starting SG = ABV/131 + final SG

In this case, this is:

starting SG = 12%/131 + 0.995 = 1.087.

So just add sugar until you starting SG is about 1.087, and you will wind up with about 12% ABV.

Or, just take a gander at the side of your triple-scale hydrometer, and choose the SG that gives a "potential alcohol" (or P.A.) of 12%.

 

[Autolycus]

Yes! A good approximate equation relating final ABV and sugar is:

ABV=(starting SG - final SG)*131.

Let assume your wine will ferment down to a final SG of 0.995. (You can assume a different value, like 1.000 or 0.992, but it won't change the answer much.) Then, you can find the starting SG as

starting SG = ABV/131 + final SG

In this case, this is:

starting SG = 12%/131 + 0.995 = 1.087.



So just add sugar until you starting SG is about 1.087, and you will wind up with about 12% ABV.

Or, just take a gander at the side of your triple-scale hydrometer, and choose the SG that gives a "potential alcohol" (or P.A.) of 12%.

Ahh, That makes sense. Since there are chopped sultanas in there, and I assume they contain some sugar that will leech out, I guess I need to wait until I take those out and then add sugar? I normally dissolve all the sugar in boiling water at the start, but then I was following a recipe that was for a still wine.
So...I let the elderflowers and sultanas steep for the 3 or 4 days, THEN add sugar until I get the starting SG I'm after?

 

[sour_grapes]

Ahh, That makes sense. Since there are chopped sultanas in there, and I assume they contain some sugar that will leech out, I guess I need to wait until I take those out and then add sugar? I normally dissolve all the sugar in boiling water at the start, but then I was following a recipe that was for a still wine.
So...I let the elderflowers and sultanas steep for the 3 or 4 days, THEN add sugar until I get the starting SG I'm after?

Well, sure, but by doing so you may be being overly careful. If you add 1 kg of sultanas, the most POSSIBLE sugar would be 1 kg. Obviously, it will be less. (To other readers: Sultanas are what we in North America call Thomson seedless raisins.) Various sources say that raisins are about 60 to 70% sugar by weight. I think you would be safe enough just figuring that your sultanas will add 650 g of sugar. You probably don't care about small differences in ABV.

 

[Autolycus]

Well, sure, but by doing so you may be being overly careful. If you add 1 kg of sultanas, the most POSSIBLE sugar would be 1 kg. Obviously, it will be less. (To other readers: Sultanas are what we in North America call Thomson seedless raisins.) Various sources say that raisins are about 60 to 70% sugar by weight. I think you would be safe enough just figuring that your sultanas will add 650 g of sugar. You probably don't care about small differences in ABV.

Ahh, good. And you're right. Small differences don't matter as long as I don't end up with bottles of flat wine again. I guess I must have just forgotten about some junk I'd added.

 

[Autolycus]

Ohhh, I just found out that I shouldn't be adding citric acid until after primary fermentation. I just wanna get drunk and for my puke to taste okay! Why's it gotta be so hard!

 

[Putterrr]

Ohhh, I just found out that I shouldn't be adding citric acid until after primary fermentation. I just wanna get drunk and for my puke to taste okay! Why's it gotta be so hard!

No offense but its statements like this that make everyone here rush to their keyboards to help make your dreams come true.

I have read this thread and your other one and lots of good advice was provided. I suggest you read it and digest it as opposed to going round and round with the same questions about what you did or may have done. Keep notes next time.

cheers

 

[richmke]

maybe he is to understand the responses.

 

[Buehler91]

Ohhh, I just found out that I shouldn't be adding citric acid until after primary fermentation. I just wanna get drunk and for my puke to taste okay! Why's it gotta be so hard!

This kind of response makes me think that this is a joke thread.

 

[Thig]

I don't know if it is a joke or not but it is hard to take this seriously. Most of us here are really trying to make good wine.

 

[ibglowin]

The OP is about as close as you can get to being escorted to the exit door. All post by the OP are being watched closely and trust us we will take care of business very soon if needed.

This is "Wine Making Talk" not "Hooch Making Talk"