Argon Question

[Arkansan07]

Ok I have been reading and its obvious Argon is not the answer to long term storage, but I am thinking of getting a small bottle. I plan on using it between rackings before bulk storage. This should be ok as long as I purge weekly or so right?

 

[salcoco]

I assume you are proposing to purge the air space on your carboy? It is only required each time you remove your airlock. use a small plastic tube with a "T" at the end. Disperse the gas parallel to the wine. Be aware that not 100% of the oxygen will be purged. Another forum argues that it does not do anything well as the physics of gas says both the oxygen and argon will mix and never will all of the air be purged. However it is better than nothing. Please insure that the SO2 protocol is complied with, removing the air is not enough. the K-meta has a air scrubbing quality that will keep the wine from oxidizing. nitrogen will work as well and it is cheaper.

 

[JohnT]

I have to disagree with AK07. A lot of argon can be lost THROUGH the airlock (depending on how much head space you have).

It is always preferred to simply top off your wine. This would be a lot cheaper than getting a bottle of argon and all of the fittings you might need.

I am a HUGE adversary to the use of argon as a head space filler. Argon has the tendency to MIX with air, and not fully replace it. Unless you take extraordinary steps to ensure all air is replace with argon, your wine will not be as protected as you might think. Simply sticking a hose into a vessel will not do the job.

As far as purging, the more times you do this, the more air your wine will come into contact with.

Take my advice, avoid the false lure of argon. Top up instead (with store bough if you so need)

 

[seth8530]

Honestly, I dont think that this is an argon issue. I believe it would mainly be an issue with the technique used. Ie, I think success might be found with argon if one was to remove the oxygen from the carboy first using a vacuum pump, and was then to immidetialy fill the vacuum up with Argon.

Also, something to consider, if you are pumping in argon into a carboy full of oxygen and wine, logic would suggest that if you are pumping something into the carboy that the air would have to go somewhere. Either that or the pressure in the carboy would increase. Thus, by pumping argon directly into a carboy you would either force an argon oxygen mixture into the wine. Or you would simply fill the head space with pressurized argon and oxygen and then once the valve was removed you would end up expelling the gasses preferentially based on density until the pressure equailized.

Thus, if you really want to use argon, I would recommend you find a way to remove the o2 first. Just my thoughts, I have not done research on this particular issue but this comes from my university level knowledge of fluids.

 

[GaDawg]

Also, something to consider, if you are pumping in argon into a carboy full of oxygen and wine, logic would suggest that if you are pumping something into the carboy that the air would have to go somewhere.

Argon is heaver than oxygen, so in theory the oxygen will be expelled and the argon will form a blanket of argon gas on the surface of the wine.

 

[seth8530]

Not necessarily, just because it is heavier does not mean it will instantly displace and sink to the bottom of where the o2 layer is. Ie, it might take time. However, how are you supposed to displace and remove your oxygen, if you are pumping argon in through a sealed inlet? I do agree though that their is a tendency for lighter things to float and heavier things to sink forming layers.

 

[GaDawg]

I do agree though that their is a tendency for lighter things to float and heavier things to sink...

Really.............. ::

 

[seth8530]

Hey, sometimes it really helps to state the obvious lol. I have seen many beginings of engineering analysis that starts out with the very most basic assumptions.

Mass in=Mass out +storage

Energy in=Energy out

Momentum in=Momentum out

Lol, so dont knock it!

 

[sour_grapes]

While I agree with JohnT that topping off is an easier solution, I also think that salcoco is on track. Just flood the damn thing with argon (with, of course, an escape route for the expelled gas, as Seth notes). You will greatly reduce the amount of O2 left.

Yes, there will be a minuscule amount of O2 left, and yes, more can diffuse back through the airlock. If you think that lots of O2 will be left, would you be willing to stand in a small room while I flood it with copious amounts of argon?

That having been said, please read this post by ibglowin: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f6/argon-gas-36818/#post406004

Even if you flush the heck out of the headspace with lots of Argon or any other gas for that matter you will NEVER achieve a 100% inert gas blanket. You are mixing in argon with air. You will still have oxygen in there. Trust me.

I actually DO gas analysis for a living and I get paid for it. I have tested the head space of a topped up carboy using a gas tight syringe and there is STILL enough O2 in there to cause oxidation long term.

Again. Inert gas has a purpose in the winery (very short term use) but the long term bulk aging of a wine instead of toping up or racking down is NOT one of them.

 

[JohnT]

Think of the air you breathe. Air is a mixture or nitrogen, oxygen, Co2, and a variety of other gasses. Each gas has a different weight. If the "Argon is Heavier" approach were true, we would be breathing only one pure component of air.

The most you can hope for is to reduce (but not completely eliminate) the amount of O2 in your headspace (unless you use a vacuum, like seth suggests).

Many folks think that the "protective blanket" behavior of, say, primary fermentation applies to purging with argon. This is not the case as a steady stream of co2 is produced during primary. Even in this case, not all o2 is removed from the wine's environment.

I am rather strong in my belief on the use of argon. Over the years, I have had several winemakers come to me and say "it oxidized even when I used argon". Trust me, removing the headspace is the best option.

 

[seth8530]

Well, what is nice about removing the headspace is that you vastly reduce the surface area that oxygen has to interact with wine. I would also tend to agree that for the home winemaker that reducing the headspace either through toping off or by marbles is likely to be the safest and most cost effective way to keep wine safe.

That being said, I do think it would be rather nifty if someone was to get an argon system working that was cheap and simple.