apple wine vs Apfelwein (the difference between)

[Elmer]

I have made a few batches of apple wine. I just popped a bottle that I let age for over a year old, it was way too dry and a slight harsh after taste. I have always made my apple wine mildly dry, sweetening to just slight above 1.000

However I have observed on another blog that Apfelwein is all the rage over there and I got curious. And when I get curious I make something, but I usually end up with many bottles that just don’t turn out the way I thought. Or in this case with Apple, it does not turn out to my liking.

My process for apple wine has always been 1 gallon of organic apple juice, SG to 1.085 add some nutrients, maybe some peptic (don’t have my notes infront of me), I know I do use Lavlin 1118.

But how does this differ from the Apfelwein?
Does the use dextrose & corn sugar and Montrachet Wine Yeast make that much of a different

I should note that I am huge apple fan and I have never been able to make a apple wine that I have enjoyed, which is disappointing, because I as I previously noted I do like apples!!!!!
Which is why this peaked my interest. Over on another blog they are talking about Apfelwein with the enthusiasm that we discuss DB.
So what is the difference between the apple wine I am disappointedly making and Apfelwein?

Should I just follow the directions to a T, or is there that much of a difference between the 2?


http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f2/apfelwein-hard-german-apple-cider-3641/

What say you?

 

[botigol]

Offhand, the only real differences are abv and yeast. Some brewers say that corn sugar(dextrose) ferments more cleanly than table sugar; I have nothing to substantiate my opinion, but I have a hard time believing that. Even if it were true, I seem to recall that they complain over cider-like flavors which would be perfect for this drink.

I broke protocol and used EC-1118 instead of the Montrachet, because my first attempt at apfelwein became infected, so my results may not be typical. I haven't sampled my batch in a while, but it was nothing special at the time: very white wine-like, little to no apple flavor and the alcohol was too prominent. So I shoved it back into the corner and have been letting it bulk age. I am well overdue for sampling it, so when I think about it I will try it again and report back.

 

[BernardSmith]

I guess I am a little skeptical about any claim that a commercially made mass produced apple juice sold to be drunk unfermented makes a great apple wine. I don't believe Tree Top Apple juice is sold on the right coast of the USA, so I have never tasted it and I may be way off base here...BUT...
That juice might make wine and the wine it makes may be OK and the people who rave about it may love what they like... botigol's remark that the wine was "nothing special" - I think - is what I would expect.

 

[Elmer]

I guess I am a little skeptical about any claim that a commercially made mass produced apple juice sold to be drunk unfermented makes a great apple wine. I don't believe Tree Top Apple juice is sold on the right coast of the USA, so I have never tasted it and I may be way off base here...BUT...
That juice might make wine and the wine it makes may be OK and the people who rave about it may love what they like... botigol's remark that the wine was "nothing special" - I think - is what I would expect.

Bernard,
or anyone for that matter.....

Any apple wine I have made I use organic, locally grown apple juice or cider.
And I have always thought that there are far fewer, better apples than an upstate NY apple!

That being said am I to assume that my apple wine would not be that far off from the apfelwein?
if so I can only draw 2 conclusions
1- I dont make it so well
2- I just dont like it so much

But I should note that when I think back on the a description of the "harsh" taste my current apple wine has all I can think of is apple peels. It has an after taste of dry, apple skin (peels)

I am also wondering if the fact that I make my apple 12% abv compared to the recipe's 8% has anything to do with the harshness of my wine taste.

 

[BernardSmith]

Hi Elmer, First , I totally agree with you about NY apples - and certainly the apples from upstate.
My guess is that you make your apple wine fine and that you might like the wine you make a little more if the two following ideas were applied.
1. IMO, there is always a balance between the amount of alcohol in a drink and the sweetness of the drink. Making your version with 50% more alcohol may mean that you need to bench test your version to see how sweet it needs to be to allow the apple flavors to come forward and keep the heat from the alcohol further back.
2. IMO, really good cider apples will have lots of tannins and malic acid. Culinary (eating apples) tend to be sweeter and have less acid and less tannins. Your apple juice may be more tannic and acidic than the juice used in your recipe. That's OK, but what you may want to do if you are making wine (with more alcohol than the recipe) is to go for a malo lactic fermentation. There is a bacterium that will convert harsher malic acid to rather more gentle lactic acid, and I have found that simply allowing my apple wines and ciders to age about 9 months to a year or more seems to enable the bacteria in the wine to multiply enough after fermentation to do that work. I don't backsweeten so I don't add K-sorbate . I believe that the addition of K--sorbate in the presence of these bacteria creates off flavors (like geranium). This bacterium , by the way can be bought at your LHBS in bottles for about $7.00 (I think one bottle is good for 5 gallons but I have never bought this so I really cannot say).
Bottom line... Your wine making is almost certainly better than you are giving yourself credit for... The problem you have may be easily fixed with some sweetener and some additional time...

 

[Arne]

I believe Bernard is right on. Next time you make it, if you can find some, throw some crab apples in there with it. Freeze em, crush em, put em in a bag. Let them ferment with the juice and it should give you a little sharper flavor. How many you use if up to you, but I use a bout 20 lbs in 5 gal. and that makes my crabapple wine. I also make straight apple, but then I use fresh juice, I use storebought juice for the crabapple. Good luck with it, Arne.

 

[Elmer]

I believe Bernard is right on. Next time you make it, if you can find some, throw some crab apples in there with it. Freeze em, crush em, put em in a bag. Let them ferment with the juice and it should give you a little sharper flavor. How many you use if up to you, but I use a bout 20 lbs in 5 gal. and that makes my crabapple wine. I also make straight apple, but then I use fresh juice, I use storebought juice for the crabapple. Good luck with it, Arne.

Arne,
Thanks for info. What ABV do you make your apple?. Went to pumpkin place yesterday they were clean out of any homemade cider, super disappointed


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[Arne]

Elmer, I don't have my notes handy, but I usually start the ferments out at 1.085 to 1.090. I generally don't bother figuring the alcohol content. Arne.

 

[Elmer]

Hi Elmer, First , I totally agree with you about NY apples - and certainly the apples from upstate.
My guess is that you make your apple wine fine and that you might like the wine you make a little more if the two following ideas were applied.
1. IMO, there is always a balance between the amount of alcohol in a drink and the sweetness of the drink. Making your version with 50% more alcohol may mean that you need to bench test your version to see how sweet it needs to be to allow the apple flavors to come forward and keep the heat from the alcohol further back.
2. IMO, really good cider apples will have lots of tannins and malic acid. Culinary (eating apples) tend to be sweeter and have less acid and less tannins. Your apple juice may be more tannic and acidic than the juice used in your recipe. That's OK, but what you may want to do if you are making wine (with more alcohol than the recipe) is to go for a malo lactic fermentation. There is a bacterium that will convert harsher malic acid to rather more gentle lactic acid, and I have found that simply allowing my apple wines and ciders to age about 9 months to a year or more seems to enable the bacteria in the wine to multiply enough after fermentation to do that work. I don't backsweeten so I don't add K-sorbate . I believe that the addition of K--sorbate in the presence of these bacteria creates off flavors (like geranium). This bacterium , by the way can be bought at your LHBS in bottles for about $7.00 (I think one bottle is good for 5 gallons but I have never bought this so I really cannot say).
Bottom line... Your wine making is almost certainly better than you are giving yourself credit for... The problem you have may be easily fixed with some sweetener and some additional time...

Bernard,
when responding to Arne my phone did not allow me to see your response. So that you for your info and reassurance of my wine.

I think I may have to give some apple another try, I dont know if I will be going the MLF route, but I am due for a visit to my LHBS, so I will see what I can get going.

 

[Treeman]

Two additions that I've found useful for my apple wine ~10% abv.

1. Adding some glycerin can help smooth out some bitterness in the finish. Try blending a 1/2 tsp into a glass and see if it smoothes out. Adjust up or down from there to your taste.

2. I sweeten my finished apple wine with croextracted cider. To do this, buy an extra gallon or two of cider, and freeze solid. Invert these over a pitcher and let them thaw over several hrs until you get out about 1/2 gal of juice. Use this juice to backsweeten. It will add alot of apple flavor that you can't get from sugar.


Cheers!

 

[Maynard123]

If you want to taste true Apfel Wine I believe you should get some that was made in Germany. That's where I had it and the spelling indicates that to me. Also a I remember it was sweet but very good. I think that trying to sweeten what you have may help, although you may want to try using fresh apple cider from a orchard. Many years ago I worked at one and helped make cider, they usually have a recipe where they use different types of apples when they grind and press them. Also ask if they put any preservatives in the cider as that would be bad for fermintation. Good luck

 

[Elmer]

Started a batch of apple cider this evening.
I got 1 gallon of good local cider, kept the SG around 1.060.

I tried to keep the recipe closer to the aplenwein than the apple wines I have made.

I not sure if I will plan on carbonating.
But this will keep me busy for a bit


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[BernardSmith]

Hi Elmer, Not sure how close you may be to Granville. Hicks Orchard over the weekend delivered to the LHBS here in Saratoga a large batch of apple juice - made with Macs,(75%) Ellis Bitter (17%) Northern Spy (8%). The pH is 3.4 and the gravity is 1.052. (the high sugar content is because of the dry growing season). They are charging $8.00 a gallon. ( I am making a few batches of cyser, one batch of cider and one apple ale). We all had to pre-order but it looks like Reed at Saratoga Zymurgist still has a few gallons that were not assigned.

 

[Elmer]

Hi Elmer, Not sure how close you may be to Granville. Hicks Orchard over the weekend delivered to the LHBS here in Saratoga a large batch of apple juice - made with Macs,(75%) Ellis Bitter (17%) Northern Spy (8%). The pH is 3.4 and the gravity is 1.052. (the high sugar content is because of the dry growing season). They are charging $8.00 a gallon. ( I am making a few batches of cyser, one batch of cider and one apple ale). We all had to pre-order but it looks like Reed at Saratoga Zymurgist still has a few gallons that were not assigned.

Bernard,
Thanks for the info. I will keep that in mind for next year. I was lucky to pick up some cider from an orchard right around the corner. I dont know what apples were used, but the SG was about 1.050.
I carefully bumped the SG up a tick to just about 1.060 before giving it a go.

Do you carbonate your cider?

I am hoping that the lower ABV will make a more tolerable or I should say enjoyable batch.
If that is the case I will make a much bigger batch next fall.
Currently I have only a single gallon jug empty, so I did not have much room to make more than what I did.

 

[BernardSmith]

Bernard,
Thanks for the info. I will keep that in mind for next year. I was lucky to pick up some cider from an orchard right around the corner. I dont know what apples were used, but the SG was about 1.050.
I carefully bumped the SG up a tick to just about 1.060 before giving it a go.

Do you carbonate your cider?

I am hoping that the lower ABV will make a more tolerable or I should say enjoyable batch.
If that is the case I will make a much bigger batch next fall.
Currently I have only a single gallon jug empty, so I did not have much room to make more than what I did.

Not a problem... And while I have absolutely no skin in the game regarding this cider, the cider is sold in plastic gallon jugs and given the short length of time that cider ferments and ages (two or three weeks to ???? ) I am not sure that using these gallon jugs creates any significant problem with leaching or oxidation. So, even if you have no additional empty carboys.... BUT the jugs tend to be precisely one gallon. I find that my glass gallon carboys in fact hold more than one gallon and so there is enough headroom in the glass carboy to allow for the production of foam without much danger of the yeast producing a fountain of froth.
Regarding carbonation, I often do carbonate: I simply add about 1 oz of corn sugar to my bottling bucket, rack the cider in and allow the bottled cider to sit a few weeks to be fully primed.

 

[Elmer]

Not a problem... And while I have absolutely no skin in the game regarding this cider, the cider is sold in plastic gallon jugs and given the short length of time that cider ferments and ages (two or three weeks to ???? ) I am not sure that using these gallon jugs creates any significant problem with leaching or oxidation. So, even if you have no additional empty carboys.... BUT the jugs tend to be precisely one gallon. I find that my glass gallon carboys in fact hold more than one gallon and so there is enough headroom in the glass carboy to allow for the production of foam without much danger of the yeast producing a fountain of froth.
Regarding carbonation, I often do carbonate: I simply add about 1 oz of corn sugar to my bottling bucket, rack the cider in and allow the bottled cider to sit a few weeks to be fully primed.

I am going to make this first batch still & bottle in wine bottles (which I have an abundance of)
If I like it, I may down the road investigate carbonation, which at the moment seems utterly incomprehensible to me!
But I will get there!

 

[BernardSmith]

Carbonation - I am no expert but it seems to be somewhat self-intuitive. All you are doing is starting off with a clean slate - that is - no residual unfermented sugar. You either use the remaining yeast or you may need to add yeast - depends on how long you have been aging the wine /cider /mead. But what you do is add a known and specific amount of sugar to your bottling bucket and immediately bottle and cap the liquor. The small amount of sugar is added NOT for the alcohol it produces (very little additional alcohol) but for the CO2 gas the yeast produces. That gas is trapped in the capped bottles so it has nowhere to escape. The gas builds up pressure in the bottle - so you really do not want to create so much gas that the cork will fly off - or worse, so much gas that the bottle will explode sending flying glass all over the room.
A beer bottle will easily hold up to the amount of pressure that 1 oz of sugar will produce when it is fully fermented and a champagne bottle - I think - will hold up to an additional ounce or so of sugar. If you leave the bottles unopened for a couple of weeks the gas will be well absorbed (under some pressure) by the liquid in the bottle and your opening the bottle releases that pressure resulting in the escape of the gas - resulting in a fizzy drink. Beer has proteins which trap the CO2 in a kind of net. That's what creates the "head". Cider has no protein so the bubbles may play on the surface but you won't get any lacing or the like.

 

[Elmer]

Hi Elmer, Not sure how close you may be to Granville. Hicks Orchard over the weekend delivered to the LHBS here in Saratoga a large batch of apple juice - made with Macs,(75%) Ellis Bitter (17%) Northern Spy (8%). The pH is 3.4 and the gravity is 1.052. (the high sugar content is because of the dry growing season). They are charging $8.00 a gallon. ( I am making a few batches of cyser, one batch of cider and one apple ale). We all had to pre-order but it looks like Reed at Saratoga Zymurgist still has a few gallons that were not assigned.

Bernard,
Sat I made my way up to Saratoga and grabbed 3 gallons of cider. I mentioned to reed and his wife that you had informed me about the extra cider.
I have the cider in my bucket, trying to get it warmed up, it is now 65 degrees up from 55 yesterday afternoon.
I intend to pitch yeast this afternoon



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[BernardSmith]

They are both the salt of the earth and Reed is incredibly helpful. If you have any questions about a brewing or wine making project he will think it through with you.
As for the cider, I really hope that it meets the mark for you. I tasted the juice and it really is quite delicious.

 

[Elmer]

They are both the salt of the earth and Reed is incredibly helpful. If you have any questions about a brewing or wine making project he will think it through with you.
As for the cider, I really hope that it meets the mark for you. I tasted the juice and it really is quite delicious.

I am going to follow the recipe he has on his web site.
No added sugar, leaving the Sg at 1.060.
Hoping that 8% ABV makes a tasty cider.
Reed seemed to agree that my previous efforts (12% ABV Apple wine) was just too high of ABV


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