adding nutrient to cabernet kit

[M&S Vineyards]

My question is: is it OK to add yeast nutrient to a kit 24 hrs after you've pitched yeast.I didand hada huge drop in the SG 1.070(initial SG-1.082)after 24 hrs to 1.025 at 48 hrs.It seems OK and is still making lots of bubbles and fizzing.

 

[grapeman]

It is fine to add it then. It may be more beneficial later to coax the yeast lower, but it doesn't really hurt it now.

 

[cpfan]

My question is: is it OK to add yeast nutrient to a kit 24 hrs after you've pitched yeast.I didand hada huge drop in the SG 1.070(initial SG-1.082)after 24 hrs to 1.025 at 48 hrs.It seems OK and is still making lots of bubbles and fizzing.

1. Which beach???

2. You don't usually add yeast nutrient to a kit. The manufacturer will make sure that there is enough present.


STeve

 

[grapeman]

I agree with Steve. Normally you shouldn't need to add it to a kit, but unless you add a lot, it shouldn't hurt. Some makers, like Mosti, have started adding a pack to add later to make sure the kit finishes fermenting. I am hoping this is what you had in mind. Don't just add it for something to do. Make sure you have a reason for doing it.

 

[M&S Vineyards]

Thanks for the quick replies- I was just hoping too help it reach a full ferment(I only added 3 tsp to 6 gal). As for the future I'll only add it if it seems stuck. I'm relieved to know that I probably did'nt hurt anything.
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Thanks again!

 

[robie]

I read somewhere that nutrients should not be added after the alcohol level is at or above 10%, because some of if will not be used up, resulting in nutrients being left for other unfriendly microbial down the line. Sulfates should take care of inhibiting them, but...

I'm a newbie, what do you experienced folk think?

 

[JimCook]

Richard,


You are correct that when yeast nutrients are added to a lower and lower specific gravity, there exists a corresponding greater possibility of having undigested nutrients in the finished wine that could provide food for spoilage organisms. And it does come down to tempting Fate, in some cases. The manufacturers of the different yeast nutrient products have individual guidelines as to where the best specific gravity points are to add yeast nutrients.


- Jim

 

[ibglowin]

Yeast Nutrient is made up of an ammonia compound (Diammonium phosphate) or DAP. You can smell the ammonia when you stir it in. Whatever is not used up will over time will break down and outgas like S02.

 

[robie]

That's good to know.

One of the nutrients that has been mentioned lately under other yeast topics on our forum is Fermaid K, which has a lot more in it than just the DAP.

"A complex formula that provides DAP, free amino acids, yeast hulls,
unsaturared fatty acids, sterols, and micronutrients such as magnesium
sulfate, thiamin, folic acid, biotin, calcium pantothenate, and other
vitamins and minerals."

I don't understand enough to know what will happen to all those ingredients, if left over after fermentation.

 

[JimCook]

Richard,


All of those items are nutrients of different types for the yeast. Folic Acid is Vitamin B9, for example. The magnesium and calcium are presented in the same way we find them in foods we eat, as they are dietary minerals that serve different purposes. In humans, Calcium is used by the body for bone work and magnesium is used to process ATP (adenosine triphosphate, that which is considered 'energy' for our cells). In yeast or bacterial organisms, they'll perform some useful function as well, although I do not know the specifics. The yeast hulls are provided to help absorb off chemicals as well as to serve as a fertilizer of sorts when they hydrolize/break down. All in all, the Fermaid-K product is more like a multi-vitamin for yeast than a big shot of fertilizer. It sitll provides nitrogen to keep the yeast active and energetic, but it has added items that the manufacturer believes will help the fermentation as well.


Mike - I don't believe that DAP converts to ammonia gas in water/wine which then outgasses. In high-pH/basic environments, the ammonium ion will convert to ammonia but wine is acidic.


- Jim

 

[robie]

Thanks, Jim.

Sounds like all those ingredients will make the yeast happy campers.

I got interested in energizers and nutrients because of my first (and only) kit so far. It is a MM Ren. amarone with raisins. Within 12 hours of applying the yeast, I had a 2-inch foam top. I went in and pushed the raisins down; of course the foam broke up while stirring. About 8 hours later I went back to push them down again; the foam top had not re-formed. It was hissing well and did until it went into the secondary. The foam top never formed again and that may not be a problem. The problem was, after the second day in primary I got a noticeable rotten egg smell. It wasn't over-powering, but it was definitely there. I felt I did a good job cleaning and sanitizing.

The fermentation finished last night late. It doesn't smell as strongly as it did, but it still doesn't smell that great, either.

The MM kit came with nutrients, but the smell started a couple days before time to add the nutrients. I am wondering if the yeast started out needing something they didn't get. I read something on the MM site (I think it was their site) that said to not get too concerned about "off" smells.

I know it is said the kits provide everything needed, so if it is not provided, it is not needed. That said, it seems reasonable to me that if the yeast starts off with a good energizer and gets fed after about 1/3 of the sugar is converted, it can't hurt.

Tonight I start my Cellar Craft showcase cab/shiraz with grape skins. I intend to use the energizer and nutrients this time, unless someone lets me know I am making a mistake.

I understand the way to get rid of that smell is to splash rack it. Not knowing how many times it will require splash racking, how many times can one splash rack without introducing too much oxygen?

 

[ibglowin]

Yeast produce sulphur compounds as a natural byproduct of fermentation. You didn't do anything wrong so don't sweat it. The smell will go away once you rack to a bucket and then back to your cleaned carboy. Once you get rid of the gross lees you will get rid of the most of the rest of the sulphur smell. After you stabilize and stir with your drill stir to get rid of the trapped CO2 all of it should be completely gone.

Congrats on getting your first kit almost ready to bulk age.

I would not add any yeast nutrient unless it came with the kit. Cellar Craft does not include it and more than likely they may have added their own concoction of nutrients to the must.

Every kit will ferment slightly different and somewhat the same as all the others you do. Just watch your temps. Stir when the instructions say to and you will be well on your way to another perfect batch.

 

[JimCook]

Richard,


There should be no need to use 'yeast energizer' (which is commonly all DAP) with a kit as the Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen Content (YANC) will have been adjusted to around 250, considered high starting nutrient levels and not requiring any more nitrogen. Too much nitrogen in the beginning can cause the yeast cells to be 'burned' and not make them as viable as they could be. The yeast nutrient that was included with Mosti kits to help any yeast cells stay healthy, especially the later generations that can be active in a fermentation as it slows down. The stronger the 'gene pool' of the starting yeast, the stronger the children. Throwing nutrients into the mix helps to assure a complete fermentation, although it seems that very few kits will not ferment all the way to dryness.


H2S (hydrogen sulfide) is one of the byproducts that can be in the 'exhaust' of the fermentation reaction. Different yeast will create different levels of H2S during fermentation - I'm assuming you were using the EC-1118 that likely came with the kit. Post fermentation smells with EC-1118 are generally not pleasant, so don't be quite so concerned yet. Proper nitrogen levels can help make the yeasties' lives easier, helping convince them to kick off less H2S than if they were stressed.


The H2S will likely fade and if you do splash rack that red (I believe that Mosti recommends this in their current instruction set and it's something that I do with almost all of my reds), it will likely clear out any remaining H2S. The greater concern comes after fermentation is essentially complete if K-Meta is not added in a timely fashion as the dying yeast cells experience a great amount of stress and can kick off higher concentrations of H2S.I have also noticed that different wine varietals will produce different apparent levels of H2S with the same yeast.


By everything you have stated to this point, you should be fine splash racking to the secondary fermentation vessel and continuing to follow the instructions. Oxygen at this point of the fermentation will also help to keep the yeast going so they can happily ferment the wine to dryness. Human beings can detect H2S down to very small concentrations and the CO2 that is pushing up out of the wine will help kick that smell up toward your nose, so don't worry about your wine currently.


The foam dissipating is common with kits - you'll normally see some kind of foaming and then a Coca-Cola like fizziness after that. Different yeast will foam at different levels.You won't experience this as much with wine from frozen/fresh grapes because the grape skins will form a cap and their weight likely crushes any foam bubbles and takes the place of them on top of the fermentation liquid.


- Jim

 

[robie]

That does make me feel better, so thanks again.
I used the yeast packet provided with the kit.
I'll hold off on the energizer.

I look forward to learning this process and getting several kits' experience under my belt, as I am looking forward to eventually working with frozen grapes, then fresh grapes. Right now I have my hands full just learning and getting comfortable with the processes.

Lots to learn!!!