A question about about fermentation

[rstar26]

Hi All,

I have a question about primary/secondary fermentation. Why do we do it? What is the issue with finishing fermentation in the primary? I am on day 10 on the port I am working(8 days from 1.110 to 1.032 then feeding to 1.050(sitting at 1.040 SG right now) My reservation in transfering to my 3 gal glass is from the fact that I think I will have more than 3 gallons when i transfer (still sitting at the 3 gal mark on my primary) plus I need to fortify it when its done, plus add f-pac and backsweeten. Am I going to shoot myself in the foot letting it finish in the primary? I do have a 23L plastic carboy I could transfer it to, to let it finish, and allow space for fortification and f-pac etc, then transfer into my 3 gal for aging. Recommendations and feed back appreciated!

 

[PCharles]

Is this a kit

Hi All,

I have a question about primary/secondary fermentation. Why do we do it? What is the issue with finishing fermentation in the primary? I am on day 10 on the port I am working(8 days from 1.110 to 1.032 then feeding to 1.050(sitting at 1.040 SG right now) My reservation in transfering to my 3 gal glass is from the fact that I think I will have more than 3 gallons when i transfer (still sitting at the 3 gal mark on my primary) plus I need to fortify it when its done, plus add f-pac and backsweeten. Am I going to shoot myself in the foot letting it finish in the primary? I do have a 23L plastic carboy I could transfer it to, to let it finish, and allow space for fortification and f-pac etc, then transfer into my 3 gal for aging. Recommendations and feed back appreciated!

RStar, is this a kit you are making? It sounds like a port or sherry. I was a bit confused with your comment about feeding to 1.050. What's that all about? If this is a kit, you might consider calling the company to discuss your concerns.

You indicated that you felt you might have more than 3 gallons. If this is the case, you can fill up another smaller bottle (say a 750 ml bottle) which you could air lock. Wine in the secondary will have sediment that you will rack off. Any overage that you store in another small bottle can be used to top off later.

One reason not to have extended fermentation in the primary is that the sediment might impart undesirable flavors into the wine. I just fermented Cab Sauv from grapes that were freshly crushed. This was in the primary for only 8 days.

Best of luck with your wine,
Paul

 

[rstar26]

This is not a kit wine. It is a port i am making from scratch. My comment on feeding the yeast was in regards to attaining a final abv of 17% via fermentation. ie: start at 1.110 sg ferment to 1.032 sg (achieving approx 10.24% abv) then feeding the yeast sugar raising the sg to 1.050 then allowing to ferment to .995 (about 7% abv) for a total of about 17% abv, then fortifying and backsweetening

 

[jet]

Oxidation.

Primary fermentation is often performed in a bucket. This is OK during active fermentation since enough CO2 is being produced to protect the wine. Once it stops fermenting, you need to get the wine out of the bucket and away from O2.

 

[jimfenster]

Oxidation.

Primary fermentation is often performed in a bucket. This is OK during active fermentation since enough CO2 is being produced to protect the wine. Once it stops fermenting, you need to get the wine out of the bucket and away from O2.

I have a question about that. Say on a kit wine in the instructions it is written that you leave in the primary fermenter for 2 weeks. But say your SG is at 0.994 after 6 days. Do you wait? Transfer? Since there isn't a ton of CO2 being produced, is there fear of oxidation? i left mine in the bucket a full 4 days I think after it had finished fermenting..

 

[BobF]

When your wine ferments dry (< 1.000 SG), you should transfer to secondary rather than waiting for a calendar period to expire.

Some xfer a bit ahead of that - 1010-1030 is pretty common.

To the OP - If you have more wine than will fit in your secondary, xfer the excess to a smaller container w/airlock. You can use this 'excess' to top up with after future rackings.

I always make batches large enough to have extra for topping up later.

As far as xferring at 1040 goes, that's earlier than *I* would xfer, but exactly when to xfer is a decision you'll have to make.

 

[rstar26]

Thanks for the advise Bob, i will allow it to ferment in the bucket until 1.000 sg. Will likely be about 14 days in total as far as i can figure, then i will xfer and fortify.

 

[robie]

Hi All,

I have a question about primary/secondary fermentation. Why do we do it? What is the issue with finishing fermentation in the primary? I am on day 10 on the port I am working(8 days from 1.110 to 1.032 then feeding to 1.050(sitting at 1.040 SG right now) My reservation in transfering to my 3 gal glass is from the fact that I think I will have more than 3 gallons when i transfer (still sitting at the 3 gal mark on my primary) plus I need to fortify it when its done, plus add f-pac and backsweeten. Am I going to shoot myself in the foot letting it finish in the primary? I do have a 23L plastic carboy I could transfer it to, to let it finish, and allow space for fortification and f-pac etc, then transfer into my 3 gal for aging. Recommendations and feed back appreciated!

Fermentation in wine has two major stages or phases.
Stage one is called aerobic stage. During this stage the yeast in the wine need oxygen to work their magic. So, we keep the wine in a container where the yeast can experience more external oxygen. Of course if you put your wine in a sealed bucket with an air lock you are defeating the whole purpose of this stage. Some just set the lid in place and open it a couple times a day and stir the wine. This stirring also lets oxygen into the wine. (Because white wines are more susceptible to oxidation, even during this stage it is best to keep a lid on the wine and open it at least once a day to stir it and let some oxygen in for the yeast. The white wine doesn't like exposure to oxygen but the yeast do, so there is a trade off required.)

The second stage is the anaerobic stage. During this stage, the yeast must be keep from oxygen. Hence, secondary, where the wine is transferred to a carboy and sealed with an air lock.

Different yeast go from stage one to stage two at different points; that's why kit makers have you transfer to secondary at different SG's. Also, the time to transfer is somewhat subjective.

Another reason for secondary is to rack the wine off the gross lees. This can be important, especially for red wines.

For fresh/frozen red grape wines, stage one ends when the wine is pressed off the skins. The newly pressed wine is generally placed in a sealed container with an air lock installed.

For kit wines, some of us will do both stages in the same bucket. We start in the bucket with the lid setting loosely on top. When it's time for secondary, we snap the lid down tight and add an air lock. This doesn't allow us to rack off the gross lees. For kit wines, this is still an issue, but not as big an issue as it is for fresh/frozen grape wines, which have lots more gross lees. Same is true for some fruit wines, they can have lots of lees.

About having extra wine, never through away any of your wine that you can fit into a wine bottle. I use three sizes of bottles; I can generally save all that extra in these various sizes.

 

[rstar26]

Is there a special bung you can get for a wine bottle?

 

[buddy]

Is there a special bung you can get for a wine bottle?

A number 2 bung will allow you to store your extra wine in a wine bottle with an air lock.

 

[robie]

Is there a special bung you can get for a wine bottle?

Use one like (below url), only turn it upside down. It fits OVER the top of the wine bottle nicely.

http://www.finevinewines.com/XPListSubRe.asp?MM_PartNumber=5163

 

[CB750]

This thread interests me because, I don't think their are hard an fast rules on wine making. For example none of the kits I have made instruct you to stir the wine after you pitch the yeast, rather they tell you to keep it in a sealed container with an air lock. I do all of my fermentation in glass carboys with air locks 100% of the time. I use two packs of yeast and before I pitch it I shake the carboy hard for 5 to 10 minutes to shake as much air into the juice as possible and ferment at 70 to 72 degrees. As a result I am usually able to get a primary fermentation down to below 1.000 in a week to 10 days.

Depending on the kit you make the instructions may or may not even have a secondary ferment and you go from racking your primary and adding Sulphates, Sorbate, clarification agents, and Degassing the wine.

The way I look at it is the kit makers are trying to help you produce the best quality of wine you can from their kits so that you will buy more of their kits to make good wine. Naturally if you are not making a kit you are pretty much on you own as to what steps to take.

 

[robie]

This thread interests me because, I don't think their are hard an fast rules on wine making. For example none of the kits I have made instruct you to stir the wine after you pitch the yeast, rather they tell you to keep it in a sealed container with an air lock. I do all of my fermentation in glass carboys with air locks 100% of the time. I use two packs of yeast and before I pitch it I shake the carboy hard for 5 to 10 minutes to shake as much air into the juice as possible and ferment at 70 to 72 degrees. As a result I am usually able to get a primary fermentation down to below 1.000 in a week to 10 days.

Depending on the kit you make the instructions may or may not even have a secondary ferment and you go from racking your primary and adding Sulphates, Sorbate, clarification agents, and Degassing the wine.

The way I look at it is the kit makers are trying to help you produce the best quality of wine you can from their kits so that you will buy more of their kits to make good wine. Naturally if you are not making a kit you are pretty much on you own as to what steps to take.

Do you make red kits with grape or raisin packs or fresh/frozen grape wine using this method?

I am writing this, not as any kind of "cut", but as my opinion. Besides, can't cut what works for you.

Kits aside, there are reasonable, acceptable methods for making wine. However, there are thousands of variations to these methods and likely all of them work to some extent or another.

For kits, sometimes the manufacturer is as much or more concerned that you don't end up with a stuck fermentation or oxidized (bad) wine as they are you're using standard, acceptable wine making practices. They warranty the kits, but only if you go strictly by the instructions.

They also have to assume that many inexperienced are also making wine kits for the first time, like dozens and dozens everyday I'm sure. Therefore, they have to take the "safe" path.

What you are doing seems to work for you. However, I wonder if, although your fermentations finish, if the esters and fruit flavors and such will always be what they could be if you didn't lock up your wine, especially reds. You won't ever know, either, unless you make several double batches, side by side, wait a couple of year, and do a blind taste test.

Locking the wine up, one does need to add two packets of yeast, as most of them likely die from lack of oxygen toward the end of the aerobic fermentation, so the more one starts with, the more likely one will have enough left alive to finish through the anaerobic stage.

I am not gong to recommend you do your wines any differently. It works for you, so go for it. However, I do believe, especially for the reds, maybe not every time but most of the time, you will end up with a better wine if you do their primary fermentation in a non-closed manner. I think the science of red wine making will prove me correct. Also, I would never recommend a new wine maker start out locking up his wines, especially reds.

I'll finish by giving a fun, but true saying, "If you ask ten wine makers a question, you will get back eleven different answers." Funny thing is maybe all eleven are correct.

 

[GerardVineyard]

Use one like (below url), only turn it upside down. It fits OVER the top of the wine bottle nicely.

http://www.finevinewines.com/XPListSubRe.asp?MM_PartNumber=5163

This link is to an AllJuice bucket, not a bottle bung ....

 

[ibglowin]

Those are nice to have in your wine making "tool box" for sure!

 

[robie]

This link is to an AllJuice bucket, not a bottle bung ....

That's funny and I have seen this happen before. I tried it again and again I got some other web page.

Oh well, Go to finevinewines.com, click on equipment, click on stoppers.
About half way down you will find part #5163 - Intermediate Multi-fit Carboy Stopper, Drilled.
These are the correct ones, as they are not solid bungs.

Sorry for the problem.

 

[ibglowin]

I fixed the links above.

Here is a link to a #2 Drilled Rubber Stopper as well that will work (inserted upright)

 

[robie]

I fixed the links above.

Here is a link to a #2 Drilled Rubber Stopper as well that will work (inserted upright)

That's the same page (#5163) I was linking to. Your url says #4608. Wonder why I can't get it?

Thanks, Mike.

 

[ibglowin]

Try them again, just tweaked the link a bit more. They are working for me ATM.

 

[djrockinsteve]

This thread interests me because, I don't think their are hard an fast rules on wine making. For example none of the kits I have made instruct you to stir the wine after you pitch the yeast, rather they tell you to keep it in a sealed container with an air lock.

Making wine can be somewhat forgiving. You can goof up a few things and it will still turn out okay. However if you understand how each process works and why it occurs you begin to realize that you really should adhere to a few basic princibles.

With that being said everyone has their own preferences, whether it was how they were taught, stumbled upon or it just plain works for them.

Your kit says to keep it in an air tight container till thru fermenting. Yeast need to breath. They need air. They expel CO2 and too much can cause them to slow down or become stressed and stall fermentation. Stirring the must a few times a day moves the yeast around so that they may always have fresh food and nutrients. Stirring also helps to release CO2 from your must thus making less that needs to be gotten rid of later on.

CO2 coming off of your must will help to protect your wine during fermentation. Once fermentation has ceased oxidation begins and your wine will start to go thru another process....it's called vinegar.

Kits are made for those just starting to have a somewhat easy attempt at wine making and also for those who want an Australian Shiraz, can easily make one without having juice shipped from Australia. Having to deal with many novice winemakers it may just be easier to instruct to add yeast and leave alone rather than to include a 30 page book on wine making.

There are many very knowledgable wine makers (and beer) on here than can help you fine tune your adventure. If you find something that goes against the norm and you have no trouble, go for it. For me I prefer to stick a little closer to the science end, especially after all the time and money I put into it. I would hate to find out a year later my 5 gallons is spoiled because I didn't understand what really goes on.

As away on here and search. You will undoubtedly get an education and have fun in doing so.

Just my 3 cents worth...inflation.