Harford Vineyard Chilean Grape/Juice Pickup

Tnuscan · Jul 31, 2016

ceeaton said:
Now that I got some new test solution for the TA, here's what I got:

Pinot Noir: pH 3.69, TA 3.5g/L, SG 1.085
Pinot Grigio #1: pH 3.55, TA 4.2 g/L, SG 1.083
Pinot Grigio #2: pH 3.55, TA 4.3 g/L, SG 1.083

Plan on adjusting acids on all (1/2 way only, then retest in a day or so), and pitching RC 212 on the Pinot Noir, and QA23 on one of the Pinot Grigio buckets and D47 on the other.

Added the normal Booster Blanc, FT Blanc Soft to the whites and Lallazyme EX to the grapes and Opti-red and FT Rouge to the Red.

Will rehydrate yeasts in Go Ferm and eventually add two doses of Fermaid O to everything as it progresses through fermentation.

These #'s wouldn't make for a bad, or slowed, MLF,,, would they?

@boatboy24 didn't post his TA but his pH looked to be good for MLF also.

These long unfinished MLFs have me confused.

ceeaton · Jul 31, 2016

I never added a post that I had adjusted the pH/TA of the Pinot Noir after I posted those numbers by adding Tartaric acid (like 22 grams worth), then pitching the yeast. My pH is 3.33 now, which is still in spec for CH 35 (pH down to 3.0, 50 ppm SO2, 14% alcohol).

sdelli · Jul 31, 2016

Sounds pretty close to what I believe as well.

ceeaton · Aug 13, 2016

Picture to come when it gets fully dried. Watching my latest chromography develop, looks like the 6 gallon carboy of my PN that I've been stirring every three days for the past few weeks is showing progress. Yippy!

Edit: PN1 column is the 6 gallon carboy that I've been stirring every three days. PN2 is a 3 or 4L jug that I added kmeta too because of growth on top, so I suppressed the MLB. PN2 looked very light/oxidized when I took the samples, so it may become garden fodder. Will let it go a few more weeks since the PN1 container tastes good and doesn't appear to be growing anything out of the ordinary.

Boatboy24 · Aug 15, 2016

Got the VP41 pitched yesterday. All 4 wines are showing lots of tiny bubbles. Fingers are crossed. Really need to take the edge off these wines.

Boatboy24 · Sep 19, 2016

Update: ran chromatography last week to check on things. All 4 look like the 'PN2' test in Craig's test above. Think I'm going to go ahead and sulfite these and hope for the best. 4 months in and no sulfite - makes me very nervous. Need to recheck pH and if it seems appropriate, I'll give them the bicarbonate/cold stabilization treatment over the winter.

cmason1957 · Sep 19, 2016

Boatboy24 said:
Update: ran chromatography last week to check on things. All 4 look like the 'PN2' test in Craig's test above. Think I'm going to go ahead and sulfite these and hope for the best. 4 months in and no sulfite - makes me very nervous. Need to recheck pH and if it seems appropriate, I'll give them the bicarbonate/cold stabilization treatment over the winter.

If they look like the "PN2" sample in the above picture, I am not sure I would add sulphites at this point. The big problem with chromotography is you can't infer amount of malic left from the spot size, just that there is some. I generally use the color strips to decide I am below 40 ppm of malic before I sulphite.

ceeaton · Sep 19, 2016

cmason1957 said:
If they look like the "PN2" sample in the above picture, I am not sure I would add sulphites at this point. The big problem with chromotography is you can't infer amount of malic left from the spot size, just that there is some. I generally use the color strips to decide I am below 40 ppm of malic before I sulphite.

Craig, the PN2 shows my Pinot Noir in a gallon container that I stopped MLF on because of a suspicious substance at the top of the container. PN1 is the one that pretty much completed. Jim has had issues with his wines from this Spring to the point he has pitched MLB again in hopes of getting MLF to complete. At this point I think he's throwing in the towel since he hasn't added Kmeta since he got the grapes in late April/early May. He's going to try other methods this winter to reduce the acids in his wine since the MLB didn't cooperate.

cmason1957 · Sep 19, 2016

ceeaton said:
Craig, the PN2 shows my Pinot Noir in a gallon container that I stopped MLF on because of a suspicious substance at the top of the container. PN1 is the one that pretty much completed. Jim has had issues with his wines from this Spring to the point he has pitched MLB again in hopes of getting MLF to complete. At this point I think he's throwing in the towel since he hasn't added Kmeta since he got the grapes in late April/early May. He's going to try other methods this winter to reduce the acids in his wine since the MLB didn't cooperate.

Oh yeah, I forgot that several folks had said they had issues with MLF this spring. I guess I have been lucky and MLF has always taken right off for me. We'll except for one Merlot and I have heard that happens sometimes. I ended up adding some other settings that had just finished MLF to get it to start that time.

Boatboy24 · Sep 19, 2016

Yep. Not one of the 4 batches I did has successfully gone through MLF. I've pitched both Enoferm Beta and VP41. I'm over 4 months now and no sulfite. :<

Johnd · Sep 19, 2016

Boatboy24 said:
Yep. Not one of the 4 batches I did has successfully gone through MLF. I've pitched both Enoferm Beta and VP41. I'm over 4 months now and no sulfite. :<

Join the club, four going now too, inoculated twice, one nearing completion. All have been lightly sulfited, except the one that was progressing. I chickened out after four months of no sulfite.

Boatboy24 · Sep 19, 2016

Tested all 4 tonight.

Cab: 3.27
Syrah: 3.53
Carmenere: 3.42
Merlot: 3.26

All taste terribly acidic. I mean, just bad. This is not an 'oh, decent wine, but too much bite' kind of a taste. It is an 'oh this is crap and I can't handle another taste', kind of taste.

All are technically within pH and alcohol range for the two MLB I've pitched, but no progress showing on chromatography. It's just weird. All 4 were tasting pretty darn good during primary. I don't know what's happened or why MLF won't work.

Johnd · Sep 19, 2016

My pH's are 3.36, 3.39, 3.45, and 3.49, 24.5 was my highest starting Brix, used ActiML to rehydrate and OptiML to feed. I don't have the nasty taste, but no reasonable MLF progress. Can't figure it out, everything is right.

ceeaton · Sep 19, 2016

Boatboy24 said:
Tested all 4 tonight.

Cab: 3.27
Syrah: 3.53
Carmenere: 3.42
Merlot: 3.26

All taste terribly acidic. I mean, just bad. This is not an 'oh, decent wine, but too much bite' kind of a taste. It is an 'oh this is crap and I can't handle another taste', kind of taste.

All are technically within pH and alcohol range for the two MLB I've pitched, but no progress showing on chromatography. It's just weird. All 4 were tasting pretty darn good during primary. I don't know what's happened or why MLF won't work.

Really strange.

I think I know the answer to this, but did you follow your normal procedure and press, wait 24 hrs, rack off gross lees, then pitch MLB? Also, did they all finish dry (below 1.000)?

Been reading stuff here and there, just can't find anything that fits what you've had happen. Wonder if there is a lab you can send it to where they'd test it (like say the Syrah) and tell you why MLF might not take hold. Maybe @grapeman would have an idea.

I know a few years back, if I remember correctly, White Labs rolled out an MLB that in fact was infected with other bacteria. I know you didn't use that, but maybe it was a bad MLB year.

cmason1957 · Sep 19, 2016

I wonder if the grapes got some extra sulfide added to them or something like that. I also think with the incomplete Mlf I would add lysozome or some other product to keep the Mlf from restating after bottling.

ceeaton · Sep 19, 2016

cmason1957 said:
I wonder if the grapes got some extra sulfide added to them or something like that. I also think with the incomplete Mlf I would add lysozome or some other product to keep the Mlf from restating after bottling.

I know the grapes I got came with "sulfite" pads surrounding the grapes inside the lug. Maybe this year that had a new supplier and they were stronger than usual?? I think it is a pretty normal way for them to ship them, especially since they take so long in transit. Who knows, it's still a mystery.

Johnd · Sep 19, 2016

I talked with my sales guy about how they are shipped from Chile back when I ordered. He indicated that they're packed in boxes, in plastic bags filled with SO2 gas, in a refrigerated container with sulfites inside. Maybe the pads in the bags contain the sulfite? Can they absorb it through the skins? The MoreWine MLF literature indicates that bound so2 can inhibit MLF as well as free so2. It's a conundrum.

ceeaton · Sep 19, 2016

Johnd said:
I talked with my sales guy about how they are shipped from Chile back when I ordered. He indicated that they're packed in boxes, in plastic bags filled with SO2 gas, in a refrigerated container with sulfites inside. Maybe the pads in the bags contain the sulfite? Can they absorb it through the skins? The MoreWine MLF literature indicates that bound so2 can inhibit MLF as well as free so2. It's a conundrum.

The pads that were in mine (and hence in Boatboy Jim's) definitely let you know they contained sulfites. Probably have to do that since some people are highly allergic to them.

Johnd · Sep 19, 2016

ceeaton said:
The pads that were in mine (and hence in Boatboy Jim's) definitely let you know they contained sulfites. Probably have to do that since some people are highly allergic to them.

You guys saw them, I'm sure mine had them too, before crushing, destemming and freezing, which was to be conducted sulfite free for my order. Free so2 dissipates, does bound so2?

Strange thing is I have MLF progress on my cab/Malbec blend, but not on the cab, and not on the Malbec........

Boatboy24 · Sep 20, 2016

What really has me confused is that these were tasting fine - good actually - in primary.

@ceeaton: standard procedures followed, yes. They were all 'pressed' (remember, these were juice buckets with 1 or 2 lugs added - used paint strainer bags and just squeezed) between 1.000 and 1.010 SG. Racked the next day and pitched CH16.

Harford Vineyard Chilean Grape/Juice Pickup

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