Yeast combinations

Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum

Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:

wineview

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2018
Messages
302
Reaction score
37
Today at 12:19 PM
I like to use 1g of yeast per gallon of juice. Since I have 6 gallon buckets I would use 6g of yeast. I have six gallons of Barbera juice and would like to use my last package of RC 212. Since each package contains 5g, that would leave me one gram short. Can I mix 1g of 71B with 5g of RC212 with no ill effects?

Thanks

WV
 

Jay A

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2019
Messages
75
Reaction score
47
I would not mix strains. As long as Brix is 24* or less, the 5 grams of 212 should get it done with proper nutrition.
 

CDrew

California Garagiste
Joined
Feb 15, 2018
Messages
1,129
Reaction score
1,754
Location
Sacramento Metro
After the go ferm does it's thing for 20 minutes or so, add a bit of juice to it every 30 minutes for a couple of hours. Then your starter will have a much higher population count and plenty to inoculate your wines.
 

wineview

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2018
Messages
302
Reaction score
37
After the go ferm does it's thing for 20 minutes or so, add a bit of juice to it every 30 minutes for a couple of hours. Then your starter will have a much higher population count and plenty to inoculate your wines.
go-Ferm and juice is my plan exactly.
 

NorCal

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
3,467
Reaction score
4,230
Location
Sierra Foothills, Nor Cal
I’ve played with reducing starting yeast to extend the fermentation. I found that .7 grams per gallon slowed things down but still finished within a day or two of 1gram per gallon. I pushed it to .6 grams and this made for a scary long ferment. I thought it was stuck a few times, but it finished. I talked to a technical rep at Scott’s lab about what was going on biologically. I don’t recall the exactly what she said, but there were specific reasons for colony growth and health that they recommend the 1 gram per gallon.
 

wineview

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2018
Messages
302
Reaction score
37
I’ve played with reducing starting yeast to extend the fermentation. I found that .7 grams per gallon slowed things down but still finished within a day or two of 1gram per gallon. I pushed it to .6 grams and this made for a scary long ferment. I thought it was stuck a few times, but it finished. I talked to a technical rep at Scott’s lab about what was going on biologically. I don’t recall the exactly what she said, but there were specific reasons for colony growth and health that they recommend the 1 gram per gallon.
so if I used a bit more yeast than1g it would probably benefit my fermentation. Correct?
 

winemaker81

wine dabbler
WMT Supporter
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
2,456
Reaction score
4,747
Location
Raleigh, NC, USA
I don’t recall the exactly what she said, but there were specific reasons for colony growth and health that they recommend the 1 gram per gallon.
It probably has to do with getting the colony going before other, undesired, critters start to develop. Good yeast crowds out its competitors. I read that in several articles (which ones, I don't recall).

Instead of colony size, temperature is probably a more effective idea. I've fermented whites at ~60F (my cellar in January) and the ferment took 3 to 4 weeks. Yeah, I realize that controlling temperature on a large batch in September isn't quite that easy.

so if I used a bit more yeast than1g it would probably benefit my fermentation. Correct?
Yes, but with diminishing returns as the amount of yeast increases. A 5 g packet is designed to inoculate 5 to 6 gallons of wine or equivalent must, e.g., in good conditions the colony will grow, crowd out any competitors, and produce a good fermentation. If you add more than 1 packet, you may get a faster start, but the end result will be the same.

OR -- Take 2 identical buckets of must. Sprinkle two 5 g packets on one and make a starter with one packet for the other, and gently pour the starter in the next morning. A day later I expect the batch with the starter will be fermenting better, as the yeast had 18-24 hours to multiply in a more ideal environment, so the initial colony was bigger and already vigorous. The batch with 2 packets has to develop in far less ideal conditions.

Given that a 5 g packet is marketed for up to 6 gallons of wine, you may be overthinking this. Make a starter and don't worry about it -- your wine will be fine.
 

Rice_Guy

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
2,035
Reaction score
1,988
Location
Food Industry - - Retired
you may be overthinking this. Make a starter and don't worry about it --
(from the thread a course in industrial winemaking)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
An easy to follow, low tech guide for using dry yeast, 36 minutes
* Everything you need to know about dry yeast, Brittney Berg, Sales Manager for Lallemand answers many frequently asked questions about dry yeast ranging from production, rehydration to repitching. Questions that were covered: What is A.D.Y. (active dry yeast)? How is it made? What is Trehalose? Why are there not as many dry strains available compared to liquid? Do I need to rehydrate dried yeast? How do I go about doing that? How do I store dry yeast? and how once I have opened a packet? Do I need to aerate? Can I repitch another ferment with this yeast? What if I ignore the best by date?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
When you get down to it yeast are very hardy. This short video shows what a microbiology lab looks like and “sterile” technique in farming yeast, drying yeast. 4 minutes
* Virtual Tour: Lallemand Bio-Ingredients Salutaguse, Estonia plant
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 

winemaker81

wine dabbler
WMT Supporter
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
2,456
Reaction score
4,747
Location
Raleigh, NC, USA
@Rice_Guy, great video! Ms. Berg makes a great presentation.

I found it interesting that Lallemand promotes dry pitching. She sort-of contradicted herself on several points, but in thinking about her presentation, she didn't -- what sounded like contradictions were a case of what Lallemand recommends and what works, which are not identical.

Lallemand makes their product for the best result, and ensuring it works fine if the yeast is simply dry pitched makes perfect sense.

The shelf life of yeast also makes sense. The better the storage conditions, the longer and better the yeast will be viable.

A common question on WMT is "can I use only half a packet and save the other half?". Her statement that a partial packet could be vacuum packed and used within 3 days tells me that unless I have an immediate use for the remaining yeast, it makes more sense to just use it all.
 

CDrew

California Garagiste
Joined
Feb 15, 2018
Messages
1,129
Reaction score
1,754
Location
Sacramento Metro
A common question on WMT is "can I use only half a packet and save the other half?". Her statement that a partial packet could be vacuum packed and used within 3 days tells me that unless I have an immediate use for the remaining yeast, it makes more sense to just use it all.
This only makes sense if you only use yeast in tiny packets. Most interesting yeast is difficult to find in 5 gm packets. I buy yeast in 500gm bricks to get the variety I want. There is no way to use it all in 3 days. Fortunately, it holds over just fine. I get out what I want, vacuum seal it and put it back in the fridge. I am using the same brick of Avante that I used in 2020. It's still perfect and I've got 400 pounds of really nice Syrah fermenting right now. I am considering doing a 2 year experiment with this yeast depending on how much I have left at the end of 2021. Anyway, I've done this test already:

Link to year to year yeast storage test
 

winemaker81

wine dabbler
WMT Supporter
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
2,456
Reaction score
4,747
Location
Raleigh, NC, USA
This only makes sense if you only use yeast in tiny packets.
Agreed. I suspect Ms. Berg is being professionally cautious in her statements. I have ready availability of wine yeast and the cost of a packet is so minimal, that for me it doesn't make sense to try to save it.

I contacted the makers of Avante a few months ago, but got no response. I need about 40 g so buying a 500 g brick if not cost effective.
 

CDrew

California Garagiste
Joined
Feb 15, 2018
Messages
1,129
Reaction score
1,754
Location
Sacramento Metro
I contacted the makers of Avante a few months ago, but got no response. I need about 40 g so buying a 500 g brick if not cost effective.
Yet you're willing to buy generously priced "lugs" of grapes imported from the west coast? The cost of yeast (even a brick) doesn't seem like much in the grand scheme, and Lodi Wine Labs repackages Avante into 80 gm packets if you want. And if you remind me next year, I'll send you 40 gm when I buy another brick.

And buying 500gm bricks works out OK in the end. I used about 150 gm of my last brick last year and will use about 100 gm this year. That's half the brick. I helped a colleague get started wine making and gave him 100 gm last year. I also sent some to a couple of forum members too. I have very little left, but hopefully enough to start 40-50 gallons of Primitivo next weekend. In the end, it didn't seem expensive, and less expensive than if I had bought the correct number of 5gm packets.

We really should develop a co-op to buy in quantity and share around. The only problem is, I don't like mailing yeast in the summer in case it gets left in the heat so it would have to be a mid winter swap.

But I know for a fact, it lasts just fine when vacuum sealed.

And BTW-I think the Renaissance yeasts are made in BC, so you need to buy from the USA distributor who is Gusmer Enterprises or a Retailer like Lodi Wine Labs or The Beverage People who carry it retail.
 

winemaker81

wine dabbler
WMT Supporter
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
2,456
Reaction score
4,747
Location
Raleigh, NC, USA
Yet you're willing to buy generously priced "lugs" of grapes imported from the west coast?
It's my upbringing, I find it nearly impossible to buy something and then toss 90% of it. Besides, I don't have many options for grapes, but I do have a plethora of yeast options. 😉

Is Lodi Wine Lab's "barrel size" the 80 g you mentioned? I checked, the price is $15 and S&H is just under $15, so $30 USD for 2 years of red wine. $15/year, compared to about $10 for 8 packets of Lallemand, so overall that's reasonable.

However, including S&H it's $65 (a bit more than double) for the 500 g package, 6 times the yeast. I'm going to check with our grape buying group to see if anyone is interested in splitting the package. I appreciate the offer to send me some, but I may have this worked out. Thanks for bringing this up!
 

mainshipfred

Junior Member
WMT Supporter
Joined
Feb 25, 2017
Messages
4,460
Reaction score
3,431
Location
Centerville, Northern Virginia
I've been wanting to post this but could never decide where, so this seems appropriate. I wanted to try D47 in a batch on peach this year. I thought I had a full 5 gram packet but as it turns out it was under 2 grams left. Also the packet had an expiration date of 6/2020. I made a GoFerm starter and kept adding juice ending up with about 20 ounces of starter. Probably let it grow for a couple hours before adding it to a 6.5 gallon batch of must. Actually had 5 ferments going on the same size with different yeasts all using the same hydration protocol in a cooler at 57*. All of them finished in around 7 days. So with a proper hydration I'm not convinced the amount of yeast makes that much difference. However I do try to go with 1 gram per gallon.
 

Rice_Guy

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
2,035
Reaction score
1,988
Location
Food Industry - - Retired
having worked in a micro lab I have to agree! One cell is enough to grow a yeast culture
. I wanted to try D47 in a batch on peach this year. I thought I had a full 5 gram packet but as it turns out it was under 2 grams left. Also the packet had an expiration date of 6/2020. I made a GoFerm starter and kept adding juice ending up with about 20 ounces of starter. , , , , So with a proper hydration I'm not convinced the amount of yeast makes that much difference.
When you get down to it yeast are very hardy. This short video shows what a microbiology lab looks like and “sterile” technique in farming yeast, drying yeast. 4 minutes
* Virtual Tour: Lallemand Bio-Ingredients Salutaguse, Estonia plant
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 

CDrew

California Garagiste
Joined
Feb 15, 2018
Messages
1,129
Reaction score
1,754
Location
Sacramento Metro
I like the idea of making a real robust starter like in beer making. Then, you've already had several doublings of your cell count before it goes in the main wine.

I like the Home Winemaking Channel's take on this: Epic Starter youTube link
 

Scooter68

Fruit "Wine" Maker
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
3,859
Reaction score
2,894
Location
Northwest Arkansas
As with many products, the makers want buyers to be happy. If that means a little or a lot of overkill so be it. At the cost of MOST yeasts out there, using more than is really needed is not a problem. Not enough and a slow starting ferment could open the door to bacteria, and other wine spoiling 'activities.'

You see the same train of thought in dates on packages. OFTEN you will see a "Best By" date and that date is there to protect the seller. Most products are good after that date, with some exceptions, but again if the product goes bad one day past that, the seller is covered and you were warned.
 

Rice_Guy

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
2,035
Reaction score
1,988
Location
Food Industry - - Retired
BEST BY is a numbers game, it is looking at what issues are likely to go wrong ex:
* yeast are a YES or NO, this is done in a dilution test where we do not see the organism if diluted 1:1,000,000 and 1:10,000,000 and 1:100,000,000. That said we always find the organism when diluted 1:1,000. The date can be extended for years with cool storage.
* oils/ a chemical, are done with a panel of people tasting the product after accelerated storage (warm incubator) and sensitivity will depend on the individual that day much the same as judging wines. The date can be extended if we use more expensive oxygen barriers or more antioxidant dosage or nitrogen.
You see the same train of thought in dates on packages. OFTEN you will see a "Best By" date and that date is there to protect the seller. Most products are good after that date, with some exceptions
My product developer point of view is industry is cautious and we toss a lot that your great grandmother would serve to her family.
 
Top