Quantcast

YAN Calculations

Wine Making Talk

Help Support Wine Making Talk:

Ajmassa

just a guy
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Messages
4,030
Reaction score
4,007
Location
S. Jersey/Philadelphia area
@Ajmassa I'm curious about what your nutrient dosing schedule is. It sounds like you're using GoFerm, Fermaid-K and DAP. How much do you use when?
When 1st figuring this out for myself i noticed that everyone seems to have slightly different protocols. I’ve kept the same routine for the past few years since i started making wines from grapes. It’s based off the morewine guide to red winemaking & advice from the forum.

1. rehydrate yeast with GoFerm
2. 1st nutrient dose at 1st punchdown:
fermK 1g/gal + an extra shot of DAP (around .25-.50g/gal)
3. a few hours later i add my Acti-malo hydrated lactic bacteria & opti-malo nutrient to the must.
4. at 1/3 thru i add my 2nd full dose of fermK 1g/gal

i don’t follow this like gospel though. i’ve skipped the DAP, or the goFerm at times. i’ve added some fermO later. And i’ve butchered that 1/3 timing i admit. But that’s pretty much been my default nutrient protocol comfort zone. The only thing that will change with a known YAN level will be the 1g/gal dosage likely.

*some literature calls for 1 dose of fermK split up in 2 halves. I do 2 full doses as written in that manual and has worked well for me.

Now your turn! What’s your typical nutrient schedule?
 
Last edited:

dmw_chef

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2020
Messages
68
Reaction score
66
I always and without fail use go-ferm to rehydrate my yeast. I firmly believe that of all the nutrients, go-ferm is perhaps the most important as it has minerals and sterols the other nutrients don't provide and are necessary for an optimum ferment.

I target 250-350 YAN depending on OG and yeast (or higher, my cranberry mel got 450), satisfied with a mixture of ferm-o, ferm-k, and DAP, following SNA (staggered nutrient additions), divided into 4 equal doses at 24h, 48h, 72h, and the 1/3 break. Bear in mind I'm a meadmaker, not a winemaker (I have made a couple accidental wines when a gallon each of syrah, nebbiolo, and moscato juice started to spontaneously ferment in the fridge); however, when I make no-water melomels (fruit, honey, and no additional water) I still do SNA.

FYI @Ajmassa, your nutrient regime probably adds about 100ppm, counting YAN from go-ferm. Not saying that's good or bad, just supplying information.
 

CDrew

California Garagiste
Joined
Feb 15, 2018
Messages
939
Reaction score
1,311
Location
Sacramento Metro
I've noticed what the Scott Labs paper says-That a fermaid O suplemented fermentation does not get as hot as the Fermaid K fermentation. But I've used both interchangeably depending on what I have around. In 2020 I tried mostly to use Fermaid O, and dosed 1.5 g/gallon at first punch down, and 1g/gallon at 18 brix. But I think any nutrient protocol is better than none at all. Remember, before 20-30 years ago, plenty of wine was being made and I doubt any of it was being supplemented with anything other than DAP. I feel fortunate we have more options and more science, not that it's perfect. But I do feel that nutrient additions do assure that fermentations go to completion. And since I'm always at the higher end of the brix, its a helpful thing.

For 2021, I'm going to buy a decent quantity of Fermaid O, and use that exclusively. I routinely get fermentations into the mid 80s and want to keep temps in check a bit. During late September and Early October (wine season) temps are often 90F in the day and 60F at night. SO you just have to roll with it.
 

dmw_chef

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2020
Messages
68
Reaction score
66
yeah, that's why I do SNA instead of giving huge boluses of nutes tends to keep temps stable even with k/DAP in the mix.
 

David Violante

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2020
Messages
161
Reaction score
91
Location
New York
There’s a lot to unpack here!

You can measure the nitrogen content using the formol titration method.
Thank you, I’m going to have to try that. I’ve been better at being able to measure TA but truthfully haven’t done it in the last couple of batches. It’s interesting to see how many people do measure it and how many do not, just relying on pH and taste. Not saying I shouldn’t, there are good reasons to do so. I should get back into the habit.

There are plenty of nutrient suppliers itching to sell you product, in the US you have Scott Lab, Gusmer, BSG, and Enartis to name a few, take your pick. Some information regarding YAN has been changing throughout the years, so you really have to decide what supplier or lab to trust, and use their products based on the current data sheets provided. I've been using Superfood for many years and don't intend on changing any time soon. Reducing the use of DAP is nothing new and has been suggested since the mid 80's as far as I know, probably earlier. The main issue is to not add DAP by itself, as this throws off the organic to inorganic ratio (3to1 typical) which already exists naturally in the must. Unfortunately there are times when the must YAN is so low that supplementing with organic nitrogen alone may not get the job done, so most current information still suggests using DAP combined with a complex nutrient for very nitrogen deficient musts.
I’ve been using GoFerm, Fermaid K & O mostly because that’s what I was exposed to here. I haven’t really looked at others but it’s probably a good idea just to see what’s out there for perspective. I think you’re right though, finding someone you trust and sticking to it is a good idea. It will take some weight off your shoulders and you can just get on with it all. I hadn’t realized the 3:1 ratio. That makes sense now thinking about what happens when you add just one part of the equation.

I've noticed what the Scott Labs paper says-That a fermaid O suplemented fermentation does not get as hot as the Fermaid K fermentation.
My understanding (recent) is that the yeast eat the DAP components like junk food and rapidly proliferate, which both uses and expends energy but which therefore increases temperature. Hence after using DAP in some way the temperature of the must goes up accordingly. To @stickman ’s point, it seems like a balanced nutrient addition is important, and to @dmw_chef ’s point I think it’s probably better to do a step feeding when possible. Especially if the yeast will just nosh down on the DAP, increase in quantity and increase temperature. The video he posted was great at explaining yeast nutrition needs.

@Ajmassa I’m starting to narrow in on a schedule. At least I have a target now, previously I was shooting arrows into the sky, as it were. I use GoFerm because of it’s nutrient, protective, and startup properties. I like the step approach of adding amounts based on yeast strain and starting SG, at 24, 48, and 72 hours, and 1/3 drop. I like using Fermaid K because it has both nutrients and DAP, and Fermaid O towards the end if sluggish. I will most likely use 1G/gallon for wine and 2G/gallon for mead. I also use pectic enzyme to help with maceration and bentonite to give yeast places to bind and do their thing and to help clear later on. I think I read on here that it also helps with some of the aging issues if using enzymes. I haven’t done anything with malolactic fermentation yet, that’s probably next. I do cold soak as long as possible and I want to try saignee next too.
 

dmw_chef

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2020
Messages
68
Reaction score
66
A friend of mine posted a video today about calculating nutrition for superfruit meads, there's a lot of good info in here that would likely be applicable to winemaking too:


Keep watching to the end; he wraps up a couple times :)
 

Rice_Guy

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
1,342
Reaction score
982
Location
Midwest
This is an excellent video for general purpose “rules” on fermenting. Thanks for posting:try
A friend of mine posted a video today about calculating nutrition for superfruit meads, there's a lot of good info in here that would likely be applicable to winemaking too:
the calculator which the video references:
 

David Violante

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2020
Messages
161
Reaction score
91
Location
New York
Apologies about the silence, it has been ridiculous at work with COVID. I’m finally sitting down with a cup of coffee and reading through the posts and catching up.

@dmw_chef thank you for the video, it is super helpful. I tried using the online calculator, and it seems to work online but when I downloaded a copy the syntax of the cell calculations didn’t transfer. Ex: instead of (x-y) the formula says (x minus y). For some calculations I could figure it out, but for some I couldn’t. I emailed the author and he related he wasn’t really good at excel. Any suggestions?
 

dmw_chef

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2020
Messages
68
Reaction score
66
are you using it in google sheets?

tryjng to use it in excel is probably a bad idea.
 

David Violante

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2020
Messages
161
Reaction score
91
Location
New York
Works completely fine in google sheets. I thought I saw thst he wanted us to download a copy. I only have google sheets on my iPad. Was using excel on my desktop to try and use it.
 

dmw_chef

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2020
Messages
68
Reaction score
66
Works completely fine in google sheets. I thought I saw thst he wanted us to download a copy. I only have google sheets on my iPad. Was using excel on my desktop to try and use it.
Just make a copy using your google account
 

sour_grapes

Victim of the Invasion of the Avatar Snatchers
Joined
Sep 19, 2013
Messages
11,883
Reaction score
10,533
Location
near Milwaukee
I will admit that I was surprised to see how incompatible the functions of google sheets and excel are.
 

Latest posts

Top