Wood Aging: alternative species to oak?

[MiBor]

Whiskey has a decent amount of sugar in it, so staves can have small knots or fishers, which the sugar will clog up and prevent leakage.

I don't believe that's a correct statement. Whiskey coming out of the still and going into barrels for aging doesn't have much sugar in it. The sugar is added later, just before bottling to enhance the taste. Whiskey barrels are allowed to be made from lower quality wood for economic reasons. Most distilleries have a resident cooper on site that can easily fix leaky barrels, where most wineries can't afford that and need a guarantee that the barrels won't leak.

Regardless, all alcoholic beverages benefit from aging in wood barrels, with higher proof ones being less prone to oxidation during the aging period. That's the main reason a lot of whiskey/brandy/scotch brands age their product 10-15 years in a barrel before release, but you won't see a wine aged 10 years in the barrel sold anywhere.
I'm interested in experimenting with different wood types for flavoring wine, but finding a reliable supply of these wood products is a challenge.

 

[Kitchen]

I don't believe that's a correct statement. Whiskey coming out of the still and going into barrels for aging doesn't have much sugar in it. The sugar is added later, just before bottling to enhance the taste. Whiskey barrels are allowed to be made from lower quality wood for economic reasons. Most distilleries have a resident cooper on site that can easily fix leaky barrels, where most wineries can't afford that and need a guarantee that the barrels won't leak.

Regardless, all alcoholic beverages benefit from aging in wood barrels, with higher proof ones being less prone to oxidation during the aging period. That's the main reason a lot of whiskey/brandy/scotch brands age their product 10-15 years in a barrel before release, but you won't see a wine aged 10 years in the barrel sold anywhere.
I'm interested in experimenting with different wood types for flavoring wine, but finding a reliable supply of these wood products is a challenge.

I tend to disagree. I think a decent amount of sugar does get through the still and into the final product after distillation. My wife and I are both photographers and she had a project last year at a bourbon distiller in NJ. They do not add anything to the product after distilling, but they produce a sweet product none-the-less.

With that being said, I do think that it is hard to find coopers willing to make small barrels for hobbyists out of anything beside oak. There is just no market for it. With my situation, I am experimenting with doing barrel aged mead on a commercial scale, so it was a palatable project for the cooper. With that being said, I still have yet to find any cooper in America using Acacia besides him, so I feel it is a great coincidence he is located in my state, PA.

 

[MiBor]

I picked up five 10 gallon barrels from a local cooperage this past Monday, two Romanian Oak (M & M+ with LT heads), on American Oak (M+ with LT heads), one Acacia (LT) and one Frankenstein with Acacia (LT) shell and oak (LT) heads.

@Kitchen Do you mind sharing with us who the cooper is in PA who sells those hybrid barrels?

 

[Ty520]

I tend to disagree. I think a decent amount of sugar does get through the still and into the final product after distillation. My wife and I are both photographers and she had a project last year at a bourbon distiller in NJ. They do not add anything to the product after distilling, but they produce a sweet product none-the-less.

With that being said, I do think that it is hard to find coopers willing to make small barrels for hobbyists out of anything beside oak. There is just no market for it. With my situation, I am experimenting with doing barrel aged mead on a commercial scale, so it was a palatable project for the cooper. With that being said, I still have yet to find any cooper in America using Acacia besides him, so I feel it is a great coincidence he is located in my state, PA.

I know a local distiller who uses mesquite barrels for their bourbon, which is a subspecies of acacia. Not sure if that would work for you. However, mesquite is much more expensive because it is a desert tree.

I have heard from a colleague who does high end millwork that there has been some issues with ethically sourcing acacia - they won't even sell it at a local wood workers shop now for fear of accidentally getting into a legal problem

 

[Kitchen]

I know a local distiller who uses mesquite barrels for their bourbon, which is a subspecies of acacia. Not sure if that would work for you. However, mesquite is much more expensive because it is a desert tree.

I have heard from a colleague who does high end millwork that there has been some issues with ethically sourcing acacia - they won't even sell it at a local wood workers shop now for fear of accidentally getting into a legal problem

Most Acacia for barrels comes from France and is actually Black Locust, the nominal name, and very invasive. It is not really a rare wood, only very hard and, as such, not easy to saw or mill. If you know what Locust bark looks like, you see it all over the eastern seaboard. It is very distinct and not uncommon. I see it all of the time in and around Philly.

They tend to grow like weeds though. They are really good at asexual repruction and send up shoots after a root system has developed. If you plant one Locust tree, in 10 years you will have quite a few growing around that initial one. The wood though is not pretty and is piss greenish yellow, and not something traditionally used for anything else then utility wood, like for fence posts on farms. Think of poplar, only less appealing in color. It is extremely hard, resistant to rot, and burns so hot it is not good to use for a firewood unless you have a stove designed for coal. It will re-temper a wood burning stoves if you use it for heating wood. It will also dull blades on saw on the same level as Teak.

France imported a decent amount of Black Locust in the 1800s and 1900s before its invasiveness was apparent and they are dealing with the issues. This is why I think Acacia was initially utilized in wine barrels, to take care of the issue.

It also produces an abundance of tyloses, like oak, which are hardened mineral deposits in the xylem and phloem of the heartwood that clogs up the "veins" preventing leakage. Other hardwoods, like Maple, do not produce nearly as much and is why those woods are not used for barrels. Without tyloses, the barrels will leak. I can see mesquite being more rare due to the growing environment, but Acacia is now part of the French environment now and needs to be cleared.

 

[Ty520]

So A friend of mine who is a fine wood worker may be able to get a hold of some alternative woods (organic, chemical free, ethically sourced, sterilized and food grade). The only caveat is that I need to buy full planks, which will be more then I could ever use.

I Will be ripping them into beans and long beans for personal use. If there is ever enough demand, I can even put them on a CNC and make honeycombs, or any custom size or shape to order

Some will be easy to find - others may not happen, especially if there isn't enough interest

He's trying to hunt down the following:

• Acacia
• Apple
• Apricot
• Ash
• Birch
• Cherry
• Chestnut
• Hickory
• Maple
• Pear
• Spanish oak
• Oregon oak

Is the idea of having access to alternative, out of the ordinary woods appealing to any of you?

 

[Kitchen]

If you do an Youtube search on the following two phrases you will find a couple of interesting videos on this subject.

"Can I Age With Different Woods? Lets Test It!"

"Assessing The Wood Experiment"

I would post the videos directly, but this guy's hobby is not wine making and not something we can discuss directly here.

 

[CDrew]

One of the wineries near me experimented one year with Acacia barrels. Highly touted the wine, charged $35 per bottle. 3 months later it was $100 per case because they could not sell it. And honestly, I tasted it two times and thought it was terrible. I can say that it was not drinkable at any price. Anyway, I'd keep the experiment pretty small so you don't waste too much wine. There is a reason that wine making has almost exclusively settled on white oak, and even that should be used in moderation.

 

[Ty520]

One of the wineries near me experimented one year with Acacia barrels. Highly touted the wine, charged $35 per bottle. 3 months later it was $100 per case because they could not sell it. And honestly, I tasted it two times and thought it was terrible. I can say that it was not drinkable at any price. Anyway, I'd keep the experiment pretty small so you don't waste too much wine. There is a reason that wine making has almost exclusively settled on white oak, and even that should be used in moderation.

I don't plan to use it just for grape wine - also mead, and country wine

I would also highly disagree.

Oak is the most widely used wood because it is the most populace hardwood in the world. At one point, Chestnut was just as popular. The wine world has a habit of forcing status quo as sacred, and has plenty of it's own sacred cows that anyone else would objectively consider faults - and at one point, were.

The other factor is practicality for cooperages - some woods aren't easy for crafting staves - but they can work just fine for beans or honeycombs

In multiple blind taste tests, other woods have outperformed oak; or it may not be great for one varietal but can be exceptional for others

finally, alternate hardwoods are very popular in the distilling community.

It simply comes down to how conservative/traditional or adventurous/experimental you are.

 

[Kitchen]

Wine is an over saturated market with strongly defined regional palates. The differences in variations tend to be small, and introducing something experimental can be a hard thing to do.

For example, in America, breakfast pastries have sweet fruit fillings. In Cuba, they have savory pork fillings, which was odd and off putting when I first tried one. That does not mean it is bad, just hard for me to wrap my head around and not something I think would sell here.

So, for acacia, I have read that most of the wineries in CA that use it are only aging 5% to 15% of any one vintage and then blending with the remaining vintage. More European wineries are using it at 50% to 100% new Acacia, but Europe probably has developed a palate for already, making it easier to sell over there.

I think using alternative wood for meads in the USA would be easier to sell since there is no American palate developed for mead, yet.

 

[Ty520]

Wine is an over saturated market with strongly defined regional palates. The differences tend to be small, and introducing something experimental can be a hard thing to do.

For example, in America, breakfast pastries have sweet fruit fillings. In Cuba, they have savory pork fillings, which was odd and off putting when I first tried one. That does not mean it is bad, just hard for me to wrap my head around.

I think using alternative wood for meads would be easier to sell since there is no palate developed for mead, yet.

Agree for the most part - but I also think it is very easy in today's market to establish a niche with a dedicated following by branching out - some people have even built an entire reputation on it.

After all, it wasn't very long ago that oaking completely fell out of fashion all together for a time; some people despise oaked wine entirely

There's also the issue of "unknown unknowns." You can't really know you have a preference for something when there's nothing to compare it to.

As I also briefly mentioned before, some blind taste testings have actually found that alternative species has outperformed oak - and in not just wine, but spirits as well.

It would be very interesting to do a more expansive blind taste test of combinations of both varietals and woods to try to strip away confirmation bias as much as possible, and see what people consider to objectively be "better" and "good" without the ability to be influenced by what is tradition (i.e., by not telling someone they're tasting a Chardonnay, they cannot graft on expectations of what it 'should' taste like.)

I'd be willing to wager that it there would be as many people (50/50 split) who find oak alternatives just as palatable, and another segment who would consider them better.

 

[balatonwine]

Black Locust..... and burns so hot it is not good to use for a firewood unless you have a stove designed for coal.

Sorry, but not true. I often burn black locust in my wood stove.

https://stcoemgen.com/2012/03/07/spring-is-coming-time-to-prepare-for-winter/
It is a dense wood and has a lot of BTU in it, and burns a long time, and has similar energy density as anthracite coal, but does not burn the same as anthracite, nor does it burn especially hot compared to other woods. Actually, the hottest wood I have burned is beech. If you find otherwise, then you may be using your wood stove wrong.

 

[balatonwine]

Black Locust.... The wood though is not pretty and is piss greenish yellow

A matter of opinion. I for one like the green color of the sap wood (a more subtle green color than say, Cocobolo). Not too un-similar to a budding grape leaf. But the heart wood is more brown.

https://www.wood-database.com/black-locust/
Our interior cellar door is made from black locust. If left outside, UV lights turns this wood gray, but the lovely light green color persists in spots on our door in our cellar.

 

[balatonwine]

I'd be willing to wager that it there would be as many people (50/50 split) who find oak alternatives just as palatable, and another segment who would consider them better.

I for one agree that wood alternatives may be appreciated by many.

But think a 50/50 split is ignoring those not wanting added wood at all... So to taste the real grape and its real Terroir outside of added flavors. After all, ancient wines use to be flavored with herbs and spices as a matter of course as part of the wine making process to improve the taste of the wine (much like wood "aging" is practiced today). Yet, adding spices is not done too much today (expect for "mulled wine"). Just something to think about.

 

[wood1954]

Had to jump in and defend black locust it’s a great wood not for wine tho, these two chairs I made last year look even better now that I put Thompson water seal on them. I don’t think the wood has much odor or flavor compared to oak cherry or walnut.

 

[Ty520]

I for one agree that wood alternatives may be appreciated by many.

But think a 50/50 split is ignoring those not wanting added wood at all... So to taste the real grape and its real Terroir outside of added flavors. After all, ancient wines use to be flavored with herbs and spices as a matter of course as part of the wine making process to improve the taste of the wine (much like wood "aging" is practiced today). Yet, adding spices is not done too much today (expect for "mulled wine"). Just something to think about.

Oh sure, but if wood aging isn't your cup of tea, none of this would be of interest. only those who enjoy wood aged beverages ( including use in meads and spirits)

 

[balatonwine]

Oh sure, but if wood aging isn't your cup of tea, none of this would be of interest. only those who enjoy wood aged beverages ( including use in meads and spirits)

That is like saying a saloon is of no interest to a temperance movement...

Ergo, one's level of "interest" might be more complicated. Including injecting some lateral thinking.

 

[Kitchen]

I just tasted a mead made with spring honey that I have sitting in a 12 gallon Acacia barrel. The flavor is real nice already; I am getting notes of apple, pear, honeysuckle, butter and cream. It is taking on a wine-like flavor but still obviously mead. Still a ways from being finished though.

I have noticed that the rate of evaporation is pretty extreme with Acacia. On a full size barrel, I would guess around 4 bottles per month of loss in volume. I will be topping this one off semi-monthly.

 

[Ty520]

A local vinter has started utilizing hybrid barrels, composed of oak staves and acacia heads, and it seems to be a growing trend, at least here - could be an interesting experiment to play around with 'blending' woods, like one would the ingredients of the wine itself

 

[SSNJOHN]

I don't know if this might save you some work, but take a look.

https://blackswanbarrels.com/products/honey-comb-barrel-alternative

This was really interesting. They didn't even mention the "cat piss" notes from their Red Oak:+)