Wild Grape wine on lees for a long time

[naturevibe]

Hi all, I'm a newbie to winemaking. I'm on my third go around (the first was dandelion mead, the second was hard cider, and the most recent, wild grape wine), and everything I've made has been natural - no chemicals. I really don't understand the science behind the process, so these attempts at brewing have been simply for fun, with an understanding that I may not end up with something drinkable.

I started my wild grape wine back in October 2011, using wild riverbank grapes. They were ripe, though still plenty tart and concentrated of course. My wine consists of only the pressed grape juice, sugar, and Lalvin 71B-1122 yeast. The juice was heated well -but not boiled- in an attempt to lower wild yeast interference.

I have about a gallon of it in a glass carboy with an airlock... and somehow I managed to completely forget about it down in the basement (busy winter). So, it's been in there for 7-8 months. I did look at it once over the winter, saw no surface growth of any sort , and then promptly forgot about it again. It now has white foamy spots with tiny bubbles on the surface, and if I stick my ear close I think I can hear them crackling/bubbling a little. Is this a lost cause, or has it somehow just naturally become carbonated? At this point, I'm less concerned about the flavor, and more concerned with - will it harm me if I drink it and will it explode if I bottle it?

Thanks for any suggestions you may have (and my apologies for being a lazy ignorant winemaker).

 

[Deezil]

Sounds to me like you made it in the fall, and things progressed okay... Then the winter came, temps dropped & both you and the wine hunkered down for the winter..

Now its spring, temps are rising - this is gonna make it easier for your wines to give up the co2 they're holding.. Pretty sure thats what these burps are. It could be another fermentation, if theres still plenty of sugar left but otherwise i think its just co2 gas trying to escape the wine..

You didnt mention degassing it, so im guessing thats what this is

 

[grapeman]

No it isn't degassing. The wine has warmed up enough that a natural mlf is occuring. What you describe is a a perfect description of a mlf occuring. The crackling is a dead give away. MLF can be desribed as rice crispies when you put your ear to it. Bring the wine where it is a little warmer and it will run it's course within a few weeks and make it much better with the Riverbank Garapes because of the high acid. Count your blessings. The lack of sulfites allowed this to occur.

 

[Deezil]

Ah-ha, i forgot about MLF

That would probably mean you dont wanna use Sorbate & backsweeten, because of the geranium notes that develop when the MLF bacteria munches on the sorbate..

There was an additive that was supposed to help with that, i just read about it yesterday but the name is escaping me right now

 

[grapeman]

Deezil you are referring to lysozyme which will stop an mlf and prevent further. However in this case it will likely be a very good thing to happen-mlf that is.

 

[Deezil]

Oh okay so it's "sorbate for mlf" in a sense?

I had a feeling an MLF would be a good thing here, as soon as i read your first post... Just brought it up for my own curiousity and incase they consider backsweetening in the future.. Guess i derailed this thread huh? Whoops..

But while we're off the rails - was what i read correct, in that lysozyme prevents the geranium notes in MLF'd & sorbate'd wines?

 

[grapeman]

I would not count on that. It might be, but if you use the lysozyme, you can either prevent mlf or better be able to stop it- but I'm not sure if it will prevent it long term. I rarely use the stuff becaus eof the cost and alternatives to needing it.

 

[Deezil]

Ah alrighty, just trying to understand is all.. MLF is a beast i've yet to hunt.

 

[naturevibe]

No it isn't degassing. The wine has warmed up enough that a natural mlf is occuring. What you describe is a a perfect description of a mlf occuring. The crackling is a dead give away. MLF can be desribed as rice crispies when you put your ear to it. Bring the wine where it is a little warmer and it will run it's course within a few weeks and make it much better with the Riverbank Garapes because of the high acid. Count your blessings. The lack of sulfites allowed this to occur.

Thanks a lot for the insight! Should I look for the foam/bubbles to disappear when the process has finished? I'm glad to hear it will likely be a good thing in my case, but is there a chance MLF could be a negative thing? In which case, what would I need keep an eye out for - an off smell, surface growth..?

 

[grapeman]

The bubbles will go away. The only way to tell for sure is with a chromatography test, but isn't necessary here. Just let the bubbles stop. It won't spoil it, but without control over which ml bacteria started , you have no control over the flavors imparted. The outcome will be a lowered malic acid so it will be much smoother than without it.

 

[naturevibe]

Thanks, grapeman!

 

[mmadmikes1]

Why stop MLF, I would have done an MLF to wild grapes if it hadn't done it on its own. You all really need to stop looking at sorbate as a fix for anything. You way over use the stuff(in my Opionion) and people believe it has to be used. I back sweetin and never use it. I only use K Meta as an anti oxidant and to sterilize. Pick your yeast tolerance and let alcohol kill the yeast .

 

[New_Guy_Brad]

Why stop MLF, I would have done an MLF to wild grapes if it hadn't done it on its own. You all really need to stop looking at sorbate as a fix for anything. You way over use the stuff(in my Opionion) and people believe it has to be used. I back sweetin and never use it. I only use K Meta as an anti oxidant and to sterilize. Pick your yeast tolerance and let alcohol kill the yeast .

Just curious since im new, as far as i can tell the yeast i use (LALVIN K1-V1116, I C V D 47, and K1-V1118) all have a tolerance of ~18% and from what i have read having the right yeast imparts the better flavor for the type of wine your making, so is there a way to get the correct yeast with a lower tolerance?

 

[Deezil]

You all really need to stop looking at sorbate as a fix for anything. You way over use the stuff(in my Opionion) and people believe it has to be used. I back sweetin and never use it. I only use K Meta as an anti oxidant and to sterilize. Pick your yeast tolerance and let alcohol kill the yeast .

I dunno if you're having a bad day, or what.. Either way, you are entitled to your opinion. However, theres multiple ways to do almost anything in life. I can only assume you were referencing me, as i was the one that brought Sorbate up.

Getting back to the point though - without the last sentence in your quote, your whole process would fall apart... And to someone new at this, the fear of having bottles blow up at some unknown time, wondering if the yeast maxed themselves out or not, isnt something that makes the stomach settle very well.

I would guess that you worked up to the point, where you were comfortable to make wine without sorbate.. And would ask that you allowed others, with less experience than yourself, the same luxury.

 

[mmadmikes1]

But sorbate is not used when using MLF, so if you can safely make a wine with out sorbate then why can you not do it always? Sorbate by it self will not stop fermentaion and most bottle explode because of improper de gasing. This was not just for you, it is non stop on this site. More time bottle bombs happen because new people believed sorbate and K Meta would stop fermentaion. Or believe the schedule on kit and bottled even though the wine was not finished and sorbate and K Meta didn't stop fermentation. It goes both ways. Using a lower AVB yeast and a hydrometer and teaching new people this seems a better approach. How many post have you read about adding to much chemicals, or the wine not starting? I just know by itself sorbate is useless.
This may sound like it is being nasty and for that I am sorry. I speak better than I type. I mean it as a discussion to show there is no right way and there are more than one way to do things. Its Sirs fault!!!! he got me started on the "max the yeast out" approach and forget the chemical as often as possible

 

[Deezil]

I completely understand in blaming Sirs
I have a few things to blame him for, myself (one being 'forget the chemicals when possible')
And im sorry if i was nasty at all

True, sorbate itself wont *stop* fermentation - a common misconception we've all noticed. But i cant dismiss its ability to stop a fermentation *from reoccuring*. And a note for those reading - it works better when you use it in conjunction with K-meta.

And i do agree that improper degassing does lead to bottle bombs, but were it not for the k-meta/sorbate combo then that might only be a "minor cause" with refermentation taking the cake, so to speak.

I do agree it is important to match the yeast you're using with the wine you're making, although i have a hard time with the "max the yeast out" theory. When done right, im sure it works (& i've done it) - but as for recommending it over a "safer route" to less experience winemakers, just doesnt sit right in the gut. Too many things can go wrong when the yeast get close to that tipping point - off smells, off tastes, etc.

I guess we just took different approaches to Sirs mentality. You say you backsweeten without sorbate; I aim to make a wine that doesnt need backsweetening. Two different ways to look for the same treasure-in-a-bottle.

Hahaha, how'd we get so far off track from the wild grapes that started this conversation?