what is advantage to using whole fruit

[jamesngalveston]

I know I am new here as well as a new wine maker. Most all receipes call for whole fruit.
I do not understand this.
Is it an economic thing are is there an advantage to using whole fruit, (seeds,pits,pulp, etc.
It seems as if you use the whole fruit, then when you remove it there is a volume of space that has to be filled.
Why not use pure juice and not have any waste product.

If you buy 5 lbs of fruit, and throw away the must, why not
buy 10 lbs of fruit, and just use juice...and have no waste.
Is there an advantage to having this waste product...

Please educate me.....
Thanks

 

[novalou]

I know I am new here as well as a new wine maker. Most all receipes call for whole fruit.
I do not understand this.
Is it an economic thing are is there an advantage to using whole fruit, (seeds,pits,pulp, etc.
It seems as if you use the whole fruit, then when you remove it there is a volume of space that has to be filled.
Why not use pure juice and not have any waste product.

If you buy 5 lbs of fruit, and throw away the must, why not
buy 10 lbs of fruit, and just use juice...and have no waste.
Is there an advantage to having this waste product...

Please educate me.....
Thanks

Fermentation really does a good job breaking down the fruit. Fermenting on fruit gives the wine more character. The pulp aids in building body, seeds add tannins.

For strawberries as an example, I quarter them and insert into a nylon bag. It makes removing the seeds and pulp later.

If you want to see the difference, try both.

 

[JohnT]

(Assuming that you are talking about grapes)

I always make from whole fruit.

I find it is the artist in me that prefers this. With whole fruit, you can take control (somewhat) of quality control. We normally sort through the grapes, removing leaves, debris, and poor quality clusters. My thinking is that I end up with a better quality juice. I may be kidding myself, but I got to think that I would take better care of this then the juice company.

Also, when you go with juice, you really have no control over maceration (or fermenting on the skins). If i deem that the juice could stand more body or less body, I can adjust somewhat via punchdowns. I find that juice-reds tend to be a little light in color and body for my tastes.

Lastly, and perhaps the most important, is the experience! Crush day is a HUGE party that most look forward to every year. All of the participants enjoy getting up close and personal with their grapes.

 

[Turock]

All the fruit gets broken down and incorporated into the wine. All that's left is seeds and skins. The pulp of the fruit adds SO much to a wine. Make it with no water and you'll really have an excellent wine.

 

[jswordy]

It's way easier to make wine from concentrate. A lot less work and you can make some outstanding wines from raw concentrates (not kits).

But it's more satisfying to make wine from fruits. There is something about the process, even though it is a lot of hard work you could have skipped with a concentrate, that is gratifying. I always feel like I did not "cheat" when I make wine from fruit, that I earned the wine.

But as far as wine quality, juice is juice. If you use a high quality concentrate with fruit bits in it, you can get a high quality wine same as using the fruit itself. Turock's comment about water is important, because the more you thin the juice the more you thin the wine. It's not a "bad" thing, as some really like a medium body and flavor wine. Just something to be aware of.

 

[Turock]

I think there is a big difference in the resulting wine depending if you use the whole fruit or just the juice. Wines made on the grape are better and more complex than if you use a juice bucket. Same thing with fruit.

 

[bob1]

You get more tannin using fresh whole fruit.

 

[JohnT]

I think there is a big difference in the resulting wine depending if you use the whole fruit or just the juice. Wines made on the grape are better and more complex than if you use a juice bucket. Same thing with fruit.

Turock,

I could not agree more. I have tried many wines made from juice, really do prefer whole fruit.

I am not knocking juice pails. In fact, these resulting wines are rather good. Juice pails removes the need for rather expensive equipment (press and crusher). I just think that whole fruit brings it to a higher level.


Bob1,

I think that it is much more than tannins. I do think that juice pails are not truly macerated on the skins before packaging. This ability to macerate whole fruit enhances flavor, taste, color, and body... Again this is just my opinion.

 

[jamesngalveston]

what is a juice pail

 

[JohnT]

what is a juice pail

A bucket of grape juice (normally around 6 gallons).

 

[mvcrews]

If we're talking about grapes then for white wines it makes little difference whether you start with whole fruit or juice since you won't be fermenting on the skins and seeds (unless you want to control whether it will be whole cluster pressed or has a brief maceration but those are both advanced and rarely used techniques).

For red wines it makes a huge difference since all of your phenolics (color, tannin, and mouthfeel) are going to come from the skins and seeds. The two most important factors in extracting phenols are temperature and alcohol so fermenting on the skins and seeds is critical in ensuring that those two factors work together to maximize extraction and create the best wine possible.

The only commercial wineries you'll find making red wine from juice or concentrates are massive wineries like Gallo selling inexpensive wine or small wineries in locations without access to grapes.

I'm not saying you can't make good red wine from juice or concentrate as I've made some pretty drinkable second run wine myself. What I am saying is that for reds it is always preferable to use whole fruit.

 

[jamesngalveston]

I have 40 gallons of pure blackberry and about 20 gallons of pure strawberry juice froze.
Thats what prompted me to make wine.
No grapes, I will have muscadines in september, which i will keep whole,
just to try the process with skins and seeds,
thanks

 

[mvcrews]

You must have a big freezer! Jealous about your muscadines, though you'll need to display some self control not eat them before they become wine as they're extra delicious grapes.

 

[jamesngalveston]

I have no grapes.
I have 40 gallons of pure blackberry juice. froze
I have 20 gallons of pure strawberry juice..froze
All in 1 gallons bags.
I will have harvest of wild muscadines if the peacocks dont eat them all.
I will try the skins, etc then.
Thanks for the info.
All the juice is what started me to make wine.

 

[hocke230]

What about adding grapes to the juice buckets? Then ferment?

 

[mvcrews]

Adding grapes to juice buckets is an option. I would rather ferment the grapes on their own and then use the pressed skins and seeds in the juice bucket fermentation. It'll be more work, but you'll end up with two distinct wines.

I'm not trying to disparage juice buckets. They're an incredibly economical way to make make your own wine and since they come pre balanced and pre innoculated they're also an easy way to get started. And as far as I'm concerned the more people making wine the better.

 

[JohnT]

James,

My bad. I was not aware that we were not talking about grapes. Having grapes on the brain... LOL


mvvrews,

I am sorry, but I will have to slightly disagree with you here.
When it comes for maceration, I agree that there is no need with white wines, however I still prefer grapes to juice.

I like to control just how tanic my whites turn out. My process is to press whole clusters very slowly (and avoid using the crusher all together). This drastically reduces the time that the juice is contacted with skin and stems, yeilding a much more soft, crisp, less tannic wine.

Although the taste differences are not as extreme as red wine, I find that it is still worth while to start with fresh grapes when making white wine.

 

[mvcrews]

No argument from me about potential benefits of whole cluster pressing for whites and roses depending on your goals. On the other end of the spectrum I've seen commercial wineries leave their whites on the skins for up to 24 hours to increase phenol extraction and give the wine more body. But I think those are both pretty advanced techniques.

What type/ size of press are you using for whole cluster? Are you using rice hulls are something similar and do you think you get about the same yields you would otherwise?

 

[JohnT]

No argument from me about potential benefits of whole cluster pressing for whites and roses depending on your goals. On the other end of the spectrum I've seen commercial wineries leave their whites on the skins for up to 24 hours to increase phenol extraction and give the wine more body. But I think those are both pretty advanced techniques.

What type/ size of press are you using for whole cluster? Are you using rice hulls are something similar and do you think you get about the same yields you would otherwise?

I have a rather large press (hydrolic). It will hold about 1.5 tons at a time. I also could not agree with you more on goals. I guess that is what it is all about and why winemaking is such a great outlet for the creative.

In the past, I would crush my whites and then go to the press after about an hour or two. I found the resulting wine to be rather tanic and not really up to par with some of the great German, Italian, and Hungarian white wines that I grew up with. Advice and experience taught me that I needed to dispense with the cursher all together and go directly to the press with whole clusters of grapes if I wanted to achieve my goals. The crusher will grind up the grapes and increase tannin extraction. This is bad if your goal is a nice light, crisp white that is full of flavor. I further enhance the whites through MLF to soften the wine and make it buttery.

I do not use rice hulls or anthing else that might assist in providing channels for the juice while pressing. The operation is to load up the press, set the dial for just a few bars of pressure, then wait. Time to do some sippin and simply watch the press.

Every once in a while, I will open the press and give the grapes a gentle stir. I also do not press down to a "hard cake". Once a firm cake develops, the juice will be loaded with tannins that I prefer to avoid in my finished product.

Instead, I press to a "soft-cake" (soft-press) and have found that this has resulted in a wine that is more light, crisp, and flavorful. Compared to crushed/hard-pressed whites that I made in my earlier years, I have found soft-press whites are hands-down far surperior to suit my tastes.

Obviously, the yeild from soft-pressed is less then crushed/hard-pressed. I think that the loss is well worth the gain. If yeild is a concern, then I would suggest that you ferment any juice you get beyond the soft-press stage separately. This way, you lose nothing and can also blend the hard press and soft press together if you want a more pronounced tanic structure. I would recommend to everone to try this experiment least once.

 

[jamesngalveston]

and I am worried about my little gallon of homemade blackberry wine.
just so i can play with the big boys.
I will do a 5 gallon batch...lol