What’s wrong with whipping to degas?

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kuziwk

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I would love to get a vacuum pump but for the cost I can get a pretty decent wine kit so I haven’t ever convinced myself to get one. I don’t mind whipping the wine really, however is there any benefit to using a pump or a brake bleeder? I typically switch drill directions right before the wine creates a vortex to minimize air contact. On the kits That don’t get bulk aged for a year, sometimes I still have a bit of CO2 that you can’t taste but it’s visible in the glass, decanting before serving takes care of this.

Does whipping reduce the shelf life of the wine or remove aroma?

I typically only run the drill constantly changing directions for 4 minutes, seems much quicker than any pump or brake bleeder.
 

Johnd

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I would love to get a vacuum pump but for the cost I can get a pretty decent wine kit so I haven’t ever convinced myself to get one. I don’t mind whipping the wine really, however is there any benefit to using a pump or a brake bleeder? I typically switch drill directions right before the wine creates a vortex to minimize air contact. On the kits That don’t get bulk aged for a year, sometimes I still have a bit of CO2 that you can’t taste but it’s visible in the glass, decanting before serving takes care of this.

Does whipping reduce the shelf life of the wine or remove aroma?

I typically only run the drill constantly changing directions for 4 minutes, seems much quicker than any pump or brake bleeder.
Nothing’s wrong with it, keep on whipping!!
 

rustbucket

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Whipping helps the CO2 in the wine to quickly escape from solution but, at the same time, it also introduces oxygen into the wine. That is most likely the reason kit manufactures include a healthy dose of potassium metabisulphite for addition to the wine at this stage. The potassium metabisulphite combines with the oxygen and negates its harmful effect.
 

tjgaul

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I thought I didn't need a vacuum pump . . . until I finally bought one. Degassing is a big benefit and you naturally degas on every transfer, but for me the side benefits outweigh this feature. Being able to make transfers with carboys on an even level (no gravity concerns) and the ease of filling any type of bottle (no more balancing the needle valve on the pinnacle of a steep punt) are two giant pluses in my book. Not to mention how much faster the pump moves wine compared to a siphon. The AIO pump is one of my favorite pieces of equipment.
 

rustbucket

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Tim, if I wasn't using plastic carboys, I would go the vacuum pump root as well. There are no downsides to its use that I can think of and many advantages, several of which you pointed out in your posting.

Wine whipping followed by with the addition of potassium metabisulphite does work for me with one prize winning wine, my only contest entry, and many genuinely expressed complements from others to my credit.
 

kuziwk

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Tim, if I wasn't using plastic carboys, I would go the vacuum pump root as well. There are no downsides to its use that I can think of and many advantages, several of which you pointed out in your posting.

Wine whipping followed by with the addition of potassium metabisulphite does work for me with one prize winning wine, my only contest entry, and many genuinely expressed complements from others to my credit.
I could think of one benefit to whipping, basically that some H2S and other unpleasant gases get removed. I don't actually use a whip though it's stiring rod and each paddle is on hinges to allow it to get past the carboy neck. Centrifugal force causes the hinged paddles to swing out and it stires the wine. I change directions every 10 seconds with a powerful brushless drill to prevent a vortex in the middle, it only takes about 4 minutes really. I've heard of guys whipping for 45 minutes which is crazy and not necessary.
 

cmason1957

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Tim, if I wasn't using plastic carboys, I would go the vacuum pump root as well. There are no downsides to its use that I can think of and many advantages, several of which you pointed out in your posting.

Wine whipping followed by with the addition of potassium metabisulphite does work for me with one prize winning wine, my only contest entry, and many genuinely expressed complements from others to my credit.
I would think it would be better to added you meets bisulphite prior to shipping the wine and exposing it to a large amount of oxygen, rather than adding it after the fact.
 

kuziwk

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You could do the DIY pump using a HF vacuum pump.
I'll google it when I get a chance, I might have an 12 v RV pump kicking around. Has anyone imploded a carboy with Al that negative pressure? Lol
 

Ajmassa

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I'll google it when I get a chance, I might have an 12 v RV pump kicking around. Has anyone imploded a carboy with Al that negative pressure? Lol
Anyone who says yes is a liar!
Someone posted a cool YouTube video a couple months back. @Cmason1954 or @sour_grapes maybe. Running tests on glass under vacuum.

The glass was ALOT thinner than a carboy. And then they started scratching the hell out of it too.
Never imploded. Then for entertainment they went crazy on the scratches and the vacuum to implode it but only got ended up with a crack.
 

cmason1957

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Anyone who says yes is a liar!
Someone posted a cool YouTube video a couple months back. @Cmason1954 or @sour_grapes maybe. Running tests on glass under vacuum.

The glass was ALOT thinner than a carboy. And then they started scratching the hell out of it too.
Never imploded. Then for entertainment they went crazy on the scratches and the vacuum to implode it but only got ended up with a crack.
Yep, it was me. It's always hard for me to find this video again, but here it is.
.

You won't implode one, is the bottom line.
 

Johnd

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Additionally, for many years, I’ve been degassing with a vacuum pump capable of pulling 29 inHg, it degasses any wine in minutes with no oxygen exposure. I’ve PERSONALLY vacuumed an empty 6 gallon glass carboy down to 29 inHg with no problems at all.
 

dmguptill

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I was happy to get the AIO pump because I had problems getting all the gas out by whipping. I tried warming the wine up first, buying new, more efficient whips, etc. Often had detectable CO2 left. I've never understood how people get away with whip degassing for less than 5 minutes. Never worked well for me. Maybe I was doing something wrong.
 

kevinlfifer

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I stopped degassing with the stirrer a couple years ago. I keep it in carboy 9 mo + and let it degas on it's own. I could only do that after I built up an inventory of drinkable wine. Doing so allows tartrate to fall out and gives time for all particulates to settle. I took 5 years for me to develop such patience. I rack it every 4 mo or so.
 

Rice_Guy

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A Better bottle will start to pull in at 5 inches Hg vacuum, Using a 12 volt vacuum pump ($18) from the science supply house I can pull 19 inches Hg. The big difference with the plastic pumps will be you aren’t capable of pulling a large volume of gas coming out of solution, how fast do you want to be?
I'll google it when I get a chance, I might have an 12 v RV pump kicking around. Has anyone imploded a carboy with Al that negative pressure? Lol
 

kuziwk

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I was happy to get the AIO pump because I had problems getting all the gas out by whipping. I tried warming the wine up first, buying new, more efficient whips, etc. Often had detectable CO2 left. I've never understood how people get away with whip degassing for less than 5 minutes. Never worked well for me. Maybe I was doing something wrong.
Perhaps it has something to do with barometric pressure, higher altitudes, humidity ect. Some climates might be easier to degas and other might hold onto that c02
 

kuziwk

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Perhaps it has something to do with barometric pressure, higher altitudes, humidity ect. Some climates might be easier to degas and other might hold onto that c02
A Better bottle will start to pull in at 5 inches Hg vacuum, Using a 12 volt vacuum pump ($18) from the science supply house I can pull 19 inches Hg. The big difference with the plastic pumps will be you aren’t capable of pulling a large volume of gas coming out of solution, how fast do you want to be?
What does it mean to pull in "inches" of vacuum? How do you measure the inches?
 

Rice_Guy

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Perhaps it has something to do with barometric pressure, higher altitudes, humidity ect. Some climates might be easier to degas and other might hold onto that c02
* opinion, a little CO2 doesn’t matter, is adds sharpness to flavor and most consumers won’t pick up on it. CO2 is reductive and helps prevent oxidation.
* solubility; Henry’s Law, , solubility is linear with atmospheric pressure and percentage in the atmosphere. Therefore a vacuum reduces pressure and it comes out faster. Therefore pulling with a higher volume reduces the percentage in the head space so it comes out faster. This effect is primarily on the surface, therefore pumping through 3/8 inch tubing exposes a larger surface so it comes out faster, and therefore mixing with a whip moves saturated wine to the surface so it comes out of solution. (however a small propeller at 1 rpm mixes better than a whip)
* humidity has no effect, climate has no effect
* warmer temperature increases the rate, coming out of solution absorbs heat.
 

Rice_Guy

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The old system was have mercury in a U tube and actually measure the difference, today it is done with a gauge. We also talk about feet of water column (an air lock holds about one inch difference) and if metric Kpa.
What does it mean to pull in "inches" of vacuum? How do you measure the inches?
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Wayne Freeman

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Although I have the AIO wine pump I use it for everything but degassing. Racking and bottling are far more important uses for it.

For degassing, I've repurposed (or added a purpose for) the AIO Head Space Eliminator. I have an old Vacu-Vin and have combined that with the head space eliminator. I've posted about this before, with photo.

Here's the link to that post: Oct 20, 2019

It takes a few days to degas completely but I don't have to open the carboy and don't have to introduce any air or oxygen into the wine. Plus, I get a little exercise out of the process!
 
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