WATER TOP OFF?

[Gerry Congleton]

I think I have had some mixed messages about topping off with water, if I do use water does the kind of water make a difference? I have just read that it is best to use spring water without any additives.
I have used water to top off the beginning fermentation and ended up with a very weak end result. With 1 year aging it is better, but still disappointing.
Can one age a kit wine too long and have a spoiled result?

 

[Johnd]

I think I have had some mixed messages about topping off with water, if I do use water does the kind of water make a difference? I have just read that it is best to use spring water without any additives.
I have used water to top off the beginning fermentation and ended up with a very weak end result. With 1 year aging it is better, but still disappointing.
Can one age a kit wine too long and have a spoiled result?

When you are mixing your kit / concentrated juice up to the proper volume, you add water to do that, prior to fermentation. The kind of water is quite debated, but safe to say, if it tastes good to drink, it's OK to mix up your kit with.

As far as topping up after fermentation, my recommendation would be that you don't use water for this purpose, instead use a like wine to do your topping up. Compared to wine from grapes, kits struggle to live up to the body, aroma, and flavor, why add challenge to an already challenging situation? Most on this forum are of like mind, but not 100% agreement. In the end, the choice is yours, you are the winemaker.

 

[Gerry Congleton]

Thank you for the information. I was leaning that way and needed some confirmation.
I did a five gallon kit last year and gave most of it away to see what friends thought of it. Generally, I received positive responses. I just opened a bottle for myself after aging 17 months and thought it had improved, still not much body.
After talking to the owner of the local winemaking supply shop he told me that kits are not known for a lot of body and flavor.
I usually buy Menage a Trois, Decadence, Cabernet Sauvignon retail which is something I wish I could duplicate. Not with a kit I guess.
Maybe there is some tweaking I could try.
Thanks again!!

 

[hounddawg]

just wondering ,, could you use 2 kits ,, say 2- 5 gal kits,, but only with 7 & 1/2 gal water,
Dawg

 

[winemaker81]

Maybe there is some tweaking I could try.

Read the Kit Wine forum, especially this thread. There's a lot of good tips for tweaking.

I have made all grades of kits, but in general, the higher priced kits produce a better results (higher juice/concentrate ratio), although I've made low end kits from reputable vendors (WinExport, RJ Spagnols) that came out really well. Read the kit description and look for heavier wines. For more body? You can add raisins, dried elderberries (common in red kits in the 90's), oak adjuncts, etc. Kits with skin packs tend to have more body, and I searched -- you can buy skins.

One thing that can be done with all wines is adding glycerin at bottling time. I purchase glycerin for liqueurs, and tested it with my 2019 wines. 1 oz/gallon makes a tremendous improvement in mouth feel.

just wondering ,, could you use 2 kits ,, say 2- 5 gal kits,, but only with 7 & 1/2 gal water,

Kits are designed to be diluted to a specific volume -- changing that throws off the sugar, acid, etc. For years I diluted kits to a lesser volume, but I've changed my mind on that. IMO it's making more sense to add adjuncts to increase body..

 

[Darkroom]

For more body? You can add raisins, dried elderberries (common in red kits in the 90's), oak adjuncts, etc. Kits with skin packs tend to have more body, and I searched -- you can buy skins.

I agree that skins are a great addition. I have looked for grape skins to purchase without much luck. What sources have you found.

 

[winemaker81]

I agree that skins are a great addition. I have looked for grape skins to purchase without much luck. What sources have you found.

I searched on "wine grape skin" and found this.

There is also a grape skin extract that is basically food coloring.

 

[Darkroom]

Thanks, I have seen that Brewers Direct site but that product only ships out of Canada. It cost $41 to ship a 4kg container that sells for $24.95 I have been unable to locate any suppliers in USA that sell that product or anything similar.

 

[hounddawg]

Read the Kit Wine forum, especially this thread. There's a lot of good tips for tweaking.

I have made all grades of kits, but in general, the higher priced kits produce a better results (higher juice/concentrate ratio), although I've made low end kits from reputable vendors (WinExport, RJ Spagnols) that came out really well. Read the kit description and look for heavier wines. For more body? You can add raisins, dried elderberries (common in red kits in the 90's), oak adjuncts, etc. Kits with skin packs tend to have more body, and I searched -- you can buy skins.

One thing that can be done with all wines is adding glycerin at bottling time. I purchase glycerin for liqueurs, and tested it with my 2019 wines. 1 oz/gallon makes a tremendous improvement in mouth feel.


Kits are designed to be diluted to a specific volume -- changing that throws off the sugar, acid, etc. For years I diluted kits to a lesser volume, but I've changed my mind on that. IMO it's making more sense to add adjuncts to increase body..

never made a kit, but that makes since, i mostly do from scratch and a little from concentrates,
Dawg

 

[Bossbaby]

I have always made 5 gal batches from a 6 gal kit and you end up with more flavorful wine.

 

[hounddawg]

I have always made 5 gal batches from a 6 gal kit and you end up with more flavorful wine.

i do the same with fruits and berries. and concentrates as well
Dawg

 

[winemaker81]

I have always made 5 gal batches from a 6 gal kit and you end up with more flavorful wine.

I've started a lot of 23 liter batches with 20 to 22 liter initial volume. In the past it worked fine, but more recently I have 2 reds that are overly acidic, out of balance. I attribute this to the kits being well balanced for a 23 liter initial volume, so under dilution pushed the TA too high.

If a kit is balanced for a TA at the low end of the range for reds, under dilution kicks up the TA, but still within the normal range for reds. OTOH, if the TA is at the top end of the range, under dilution pushes it over the top. This is what I suspect is the situation with my last couple of kits.

I read through my notes on the kits I made 15-20 years ago. IMO the quality of kits has improved tremendously over time. A major problem I had years ago was the initial SG was always lower than specified in the kit instructions. I got a good SG only by diluting to a lesser volume. In recent kits the SG was good.

If those recent kits I made are now the norm, then I want to use means other than under dilution to improve body and flavor. Food for thought.

 

[Chuck E]

Thanks, I have seen that Brewers Direct site but that product only ships out of Canada. It cost $41 to ship a 4kg container that sells for $24.95 I have been unable to locate any suppliers in USA that sell that product or anything similar.

Try here. Natural Grapes for Winemaking

 

[Gerry Congleton]

I think I have had some mixed messages about topping off with water, if I do use water does the kind of water make a difference? I have just read that it is best to use spring water without any additives.
I have used water to top off the beginning fermentation and ended up with a very weak end result. With 1 year aging it is better, but still disappointing.
Can one age a kit wine too long and have a spoiled result?

Thank you for the information. I was leaning that way and needed some confirmation.
I did a five gallon kit last year and gave most of it away to see what friends thought of it. Generally, I received positive responses. I just opened a bottle for myself after aging 17 months and thought it had improved, still not much body.
After talking to the owner of the local winemaking supply shop he told me that kits are not known for a lot of body and flavor.
I usually buy Menage a Trois, Decadence, Cabernet Sauvignon retail which is something I wish I could duplicate. Not with a kit I guess.
Maybe there is some tweaking I could try.
Thanks again!!

04/02/2021 - bottled my second batch of Cab. Sauvignon. That I did in December of 2020. Today, about three months later it tastes worse than when I bottled it (very weak). I opened a bottle today and it is still weak and beginning to sour. I want to start a third batch, but I'm wondering what I am doing wrong. Too much water to top off, irregular temperature level, not enough fermentation????
To help with the quality of the batch can I add something to the carboy before I begin the aging process?

 

[Rice_Guy]

04/02/2021 - bottled my second batch of Cab. Sauvignon. That I did in December of 2020. Today, about three months later it tastes worse than when I bottled it (very weak). I opened a bottle today and it is still weak and beginning to sour. I want to start a third batch, but I'm wondering what I am doing wrong. Too much water to top off, irregular temperature level, not enough fermentation????
To help with the quality of the batch can I add something to the carboy before I begin the aging process?

The word sour means to me that there is a lot of acid. The normal cause of this would be an Acetobacter infection producing vinegar. This shouldn’t happen if the ullage was low and the cork was tight since this organism needs oxygen to live.
An oxidation reaction can produce acetaldehyde which at low levels I would describe as apricot/ fruity/ sharp but interesting and at high levels I would describe as a burn in the back of the throat.
For weakness I would go back to the options @winemaker81 listed. In a bottle you will have oxidation chemistry, the end of which is a brown color and loss of fruity aroma. You might ask your store if they have a product like SINATIN 17: liquid oak extract and test a drop of it in a glass of the present batch to guesstimate if oak is moving in a flavor direction you like. Another direction is finishing tannins as described in a Scott Labs webinar, however if the basic problem is low dry solids in the wine this won’t fix it (how much water did you top off with?)

 

[Gerry Congleton]

The word sour means to me that there is a lot of acid. The normal cause of this would be an Acetobacter infection producing vinegar. This shouldn’t happen if the ullage was low and the cork was tight since this organism needs oxygen to live.
An oxidation reaction can produce acetaldehyde which at low levels I would describe as apricot/ fruity/ sharp but interesting and at high levels I would describe as a burn in the back of the throat.
For weakness I would go back to the options @winemaker81 listed. In a bottle you will have oxidation chemistry, the end of which is a brown color and loss of fruity aroma. You might ask your store if they have a product like SINATIN 17: liquid oak extract and test a drop of it in a glass of the present batch to guesstimate if oak is moving in a flavor direction you like. Another direction is finishing tannins as described in a Scott Labs webinar, however if the basic problem is low dry solids in the wine this won’t fix it (how much water did you top off with?)

 

[Gerry Congleton]

I didn’t take notes on the amount of water added. I know I went up to the 23 liter level.
I added wine to the batch later, to the suggested level.
After I opened the bottle yesterday I let it sit for a couple of hours without replacing the cork and the sour taste was not quite as strong, still not good.

 

[Sailor323]

I didn’t take notes on the amount of water added. I know I went up to the 23 liter level.
I added wine to the batch later, to the suggested level.
After I opened the bottle yesterday I let it sit for a couple of hours without replacing the cork and the sour taste was not quite as strong, still not good.

When I do a kit, I do not pay a great deal of attention to the "suggested" level. I begin checking SG at about the 21 liter level and stop adding water when the SG is between 1.085 and 1.090. You could even go a bit higher for a fuller tasting wine. I always top up when racking with a similar wine. The sour taste is not something you would normally get with a kit wine as most, if not all, are of balanced acidity. Can you identify the kind of acid you are tasting--vinegar is quite distinctive, other acids, malic, tartaric no so much. Tartaric acid gives a certain amount of tartness to a wine--note tart, not sour, adjectives mean different things to different people. Tartaric acid is relatively stable and does not change markedly over time. Malic acid has a mellow, fruity tartness. It provides the tartness in apples. It is more fragile than tartaric and decreases somewhat over time and is subject to malo-lactic fermentation wherein certain microbes change it into lactic acid, a less tart flavored acid. There is a small amount of citric acid in wine. While much weaker than malic acid, it has a very intense effect on the tongue and tastes kind of lemony.

 

[hounddawg]

When I do a kit, I do not pay a great deal of attention to the "suggested" level. I begin checking SG at about the 21 liter level and stop adding water when the SG is between 1.085 and 1.090. You could even go a bit higher for a fuller tasting wine. I always top up when racking with a similar wine. The sour taste is not something you would normally get with a kit wine as most, if not all, are of balanced acidity. Can you identify the kind of acid you are tasting--vinegar is quite distinctive, other acids, malic, tartaric no so much. Tartaric acid gives a certain amount of tartness to a wine--note tart, not sour, adjectives mean different things to different people. Tartaric acid is relatively stable and does not change markedly over time. Malic acid has a mellow, fruity tartness. It provides the tartness in apples. It is more fragile than tartaric and decreases somewhat over time and is subject to malo-lactic fermentation wherein certain microbes change it into lactic acid, a less tart flavored acid. There is a small amount of citric acid in wine. While much weaker than malic acid, it has a very intense effect on the tongue and tastes kind of lemony.

cool explanation, I've never heard the differences explained in that way before,
Dawg

 

[Gerry Congleton]

Just had a taste from the bottle I opened a couple of days ago. Not certain, but I think it tastes a little like "apple" sour. I guess I would hope it may change (somewhat) over time to a fuller-bodied taste. I appreciate your explanation, but what now? Any way of saving this batch to make it drinkable?
I have to add that I have increased my vocabulary a bit by reading some replies to my comments.