VSP vs TWC

Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum

Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Jerry Barbian

Junior
Joined
Apr 26, 2019
Messages
9
Reaction score
1
Location
Waldo, Wisconsin
I have 425 Itasca on VSP with double catch wires for shoot positioning. All I do is stuff them between the wires when they are long enough and the tendrils grab the wires as they grow up. I use T-bands to attach the vines to the fruiting wire, but I don't use anything else like a Tapener for the vertical growth. I'm still new to this, but positioning the shoots this way seems super easy this way.

Another factor is the netting. I want to use Permanet for bird and insect control. For TWC I would need larger and much more expensive nets. The side netting that I put up this year was fairly easy to do. I should be able to roll it up onto the irrigation wire after harvest until I need it next year. I'm also in favor of VSP for netting purposes.

In the photo, I have 25 vines that are in their third year. I just put the netting up, but still need to close up the top with clips that should be here today.

Is TWC that much easier to maintain? I'm looking at adding different varieties and I need to consider which way to grow them. Crimson Pearl is on my short list for a red, but I'm not sure if I have to go with a TWC, or have a go with VSP. Or should I consider a different variety if I want to be stubborn and use all VSP? How much comes down to personal preference?
 

Attachments

  • 20200817_140341.jpg
    20200817_140341.jpg
    2 MB · Views: 54
I have both vinifera and hybrids in Virginia, including a few Itasca, and found this helpful when evaluating training systems for hybrids: http://northerngrapesproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/VSPandTWC-webinar.pdf. While they found that yields were higher for TWC, I’m more concerned with disease control in my little vineyard so have decided to go with VSP on everything, including hybrids. At least for now. Your Itasca looks great; I’ve been really happy with my young vines and excited to go for the first real crop next year.
 
Last edited:
Wow! Your vines look great! I've got my Itasca on TWC, with a focus towards higher yields and less work (Per the research that Cynewulf linked) This year is year 3 for me so I'll be pulling in a modest crop of Itasca this year.

I prune and spray, and do a little shoot positioning and cluster thinning. Overall, not much work goes into them. I don't have nets up currently, as the birds seem to leave my white varieties alone. This is my side hustle, so I have only a few hours each week to work in the vineyard. I'm not sure I'd be able to be timely enough to tuck each shoot if I were using VSP. Especially this year as my vines currently are a mess because I've had to spend much of my time on my home remodel project.

So short answer, preference is king I think. Try a row TWC, and see how you like it!
 
I have both vinifera and hybrids in Virginia, including a few Itasca, and found this helpful when evaluating training systems for hybrids: http://northerngrapesproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/VSPandTWC-webinar.pdf. While they found that yields were higher for TWC, I’m more concerned with disease control in my little vineyard so have decided to go with VSP on everything, including hybrids. At least for now. Your Itasca looks great; I’ve been really happy with my young vines and excited to go for the first real crop next year.

Wow! Your vines look great! I've got my Itasca on TWC, with a focus towards higher yields and less work (Per the research that Cynewulf linked) This year is year 3 for me so I'll be pulling in a modest crop of Itasca this year.

I prune and spray, and do a little shoot positioning and cluster thinning. Overall, not much work goes into them. I don't have nets up currently, as the birds seem to leave my white varieties alone. This is my side hustle, so I have only a few hours each week to work in the vineyard. I'm not sure I'd be able to be timely enough to tuck each shoot if I were using VSP. Especially this year as my vines currently are a mess because I've had to spend much of my time on my home remodel project.

So short answer, preference is king I think. Try a row TWC, and see how you like it!


Thanks for the link to the Northern Grapes Project presentation. I'm familiar with much of the info there, but not that particular study. After reading through it a few times, I'm still inclined to stick with VSP, but I think the smart thing to do is to try TWC so I can compare for myself.

I'm also concerned about disease control with TWC, especially after listening to an online seminar on botrytis and bunch rot. The cost of netting is much higher as well. It would cost over $5,000 to use the same Permanet to cover my 425 vines if they were TWC.

I learned a hard lesson on fungal control this year. I started having a big problem and ended up spraying Mancozeb at the latest time possible. Now I know next year to start out with lime sulphur and three Mancozeb sprays. I also used Captan, Ziram, Rally, and just sprayed Pristine. I figured that I would be fighting an uphill battle until next spring, but things are not going too bad so far.

This is my side hustle as well, but the work put into the adult vines on the VSP seems very minimal. There is more work training the younger vines, but I like that part.
 
Is TWC that much easier to maintain? I'm looking at adding different varieties and I need to consider which way to grow them. Crimson Pearl is on my short list for a red, but I'm not sure if I have to go with a TWC, or have a go with VSP. Or should I consider a different variety if I want to be stubborn and use all VSP? How much comes down to personal preference?

I am managing vines on both VSP and divided wye, which is not quite TWC but similar in the sense that the canes eventually flop over the fruit. I grow Cab Sauv and Merlot on both trellises. The high vigor of the Cab makes mid-season pruning annoying on both types of trellis, but it is worse on VSP. Merlot growth is tame and orderly. So, if your variety is low vigor, the VSP is easier to manage. And it is easier to spray the fruit on VSP. But yeah, yield is lower on VSP. There is no free lunch.

It is relatively easy to convert from VSP to TWC if that works better for your vineyard.

And by the way, if you are literally tucking by hand every shoot between the catch wires, you may be working too hard. I have attached a video about how to move the catch wires up and down the frame. I made some personal notes because I have to remind myself how to do the leapfrogging.
Importance of Shoot Positioning

Catch wire clips will help keep the wires together. I need them. Maybe you will not

and here is an old thread on the subject
fixed vs moveable catch wires for VSP (installing next week)?
 
I am managing vines on both VSP and divided wye, which is not quite TWC but similar in the sense that the canes eventually flop over the fruit. I grow Cab Sauv and Merlot on both trellises. The high vigor of the Cab makes mid-season pruning annoying on both types of trellis, but it is worse on VSP. Merlot growth is tame and orderly. So, if your variety is low vigor, the VSP is easier to manage. And it is easier to spray the fruit on VSP. But yeah, yield is lower on VSP. There is no free lunch.

It is relatively easy to convert from VSP to TWC if that works better for your vineyard.

And by the way, if you are literally tucking by hand every shoot between the catch wires, you may be working too hard. I have attached a video about how to move the catch wires up and down the frame. I made some personal notes because I have to remind myself how to do the leapfrogging.
Importance of Shoot Positioning

Catch wire clips will help keep the wires together. I need them. Maybe you will not

and here is an old thread on the subject
fixed vs moveable catch wires for VSP (installing next week)?

The shoots on my younger vines grow at different rates, so there is more tucking on those, but the older vines grow more evenly so it's a lot easier on them. Next year I should be able to scoop those up as they grow. My fruiting wire is at 34", with three double catch wires spaced at 12". The double wires are in one loop with a Gripple so I can move them if need be. So far with the Itasca it hasn't been an issue. The wires are fairly close together, so I have not needed to use clips or ties for the vertical growth. You're right about no free lunch. There are lots of factors to consider!
 
I assume you are aware that some varietals grow where TWC is best and others where VSP is best.

Yes, but the more I look into different varieties, the more conflicting information I get, especially on the newer ones. I understand that some varieties like Breanna should only be grown in a trailing manner, so I would do TWC if I decided on that one. Right now I'm just trying to sort through information to figure out which direction to go. I'm not opposed to converting if that's a better way. A big concern right now is the netting, especially with yellow jackets. I helped harvest at a nearby winery last year, and they were a huge problem. They didn't use any nets. Side netting takes time, but there is no way I could afford to net TWC for yellow jackets.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top