Vanilla beans - how to use?

[sour_grapes]

But beware of the Ouzo effect:

That was kind of my point also, citrus essential oils that provide aroma and flavor are extracted by the alcohol, but these oils are not soluble in water, so what you have is a dispersion of small droplets of oil creating the haze. The haze is more pronounced if the droplets are of larger size.

Ahh, the Ouzo effect! Ouzo effect - Wikipedia Good call, Stick!

Also see: "
Looking into Limoncello: The Structure of the Italian Liquor Revealed by Small-Angle Neutron Scattering" https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsomega.8b01858

 

[Raptor99]

Thanks for posting this. My chemistry is not good enough to understand all of it, but I noticed the following:

• Decreasing the ethanol concentration by mixing with water might cause the oil to form droplets. That was something that I had been wondering about.
• The study was done with citrus oils. I wonder if the oils in vanilla beans would react the same way?
• The amount of vanilla bean oil that we are introducing to the wine is very small, perhaps much less than the amount of oil in Limoncello.

If anyone experiments with this please let us know if you see any cloudiness develop when you add vanilla extract to your wine. I am interested in this because I am thinking about experimenting with other additions such as cocoa nibs that might introduce some oil.

 

[reeflections]

Being more of an artist than a scientist, and certainly not a chemist, both of those links went way over my head.

I guess if a slight to gnarly haze develops, I'll decide if the flavor is worth the haze. It's not like I'm entering it in a competition.

Since I am just beginning to experiment with this, it will be a few months before I can post my findings, but I most certainly will.

 

[Scooter68]

Sounds like a potentially frustrating experience. I would suggest a simple experient with a small amout of wine and a single drop of extract - IF indeed you make your own or decide to try store bought extract.

Of course there is the fall back of simply adding vanilla bean to small amount of the wine, as I suggested before. Just take note of how much bean you add so you can repeat the results later (Or go heavier/lighter).

Ah I knew there had to be some reason just using vanilla extract would be too simple.

 

[joeswine]

If it were mine I'd split and add 1, whole bean in the primary, that should work.
If your looking to add an extract then go to Olive Nation they have an alcohol base vanilla bean extract which is quite nice .
Once your in the clearing stages you can adjust more to taste.
.

 

[reeflections]

Sounds like a potentially frustrating experience. I would suggest a simple experient with a small amout of wine and a single drop of extract - IF indeed you make your own or decide to try store bought extract.

Of course there is the fall back of simply adding vanilla bean to small amount of the wine, as I suggested before. Just take note of how much bean you add so you can repeat the results later (Or go heavier/lighter).

Ah I knew there had to be some reason just using vanilla extract would be too simple.

Thanks again @Scooter68. As I have said, I am actually using both of your suggestions. I have already used a bean in 1 gallon of 4 gallons of apricot after fermentation. I also will be making extract to use in the same way I would back sweeten. Since I also have cooking uses for vanilla, I won't be risking much of anything. Experimenting is fun even if there are some occasional frustrations, as long as they don't cost to much.

I have also started to extract some mint leaves for experimental purposes.

My goal is to experiment until I can find my own recipes for a couple of wines that my wife and I really like and make them on a regular basis as our "house wines."

If it were mine I'd split and add 1, whole bean in the primary, that should work.
If your looking to add an extract then go to Olive Nation they have an alcohol base vanilla bean extract which is quite nice .
Once your in the clearing stages you can adjust more to taste.
.

I was thinking of trying a one gallon batch with a bit of bean in the primary to see what happens. Just went to Olive Nation and it sure looks like a good source for lots of things. Thanks!

There are a lot of opinions here and I appreciate all of them. I hope more will come, especially from those with a lot of experience with V beans. I also hope others that are thinking about the use of vanilla beans will happen across this thread. I expect to post my findings as my experimenting continues.

 

[joeswine]

Always think outside the box .

 

[joeswine]

Vanilla Bean extract

 

[reeflections]

Vanilla Bean extract

Cool! I've already started my extracting but I'm curious about what kind of recipes you are using. Vodka or Everclear? Ratio of beans to alcohol to cinnamon? What size are those mason jars in the pic?

 

[joeswine]

They're one quart jars, I'm using everclear. If you're using vodka then the potency is going to be a little bit less but very clean no matter what you put in for an extraction does that make sense?

 

[joeswine]

Volume is usually 4 to 5 bean pods per quart slice the bean pods scrape out the insides place everything back into the court jars let them sit for about 2 months at least then you'll have full extraction just always remember less is more when you're using it.
Another very cool way to do it is take three bean pods slice them open and place them in a Ball jar and fill it with sugar just plain cane sugar let it sit for a month then take the bean pods and the sugar and mix it with two quarts of water make a simple syrup with the mix

You can do the same with cinnamon.

 

[reeflections]

So @joeswine, at what stage do you add vanilla extract to your wine?


This is interesting. I read so many sites that said the same as you about Everclear vs vodka. That the higher proof would be faster and stronger. This seems logical.

But one site that disagreed pointed to a serious study that said something like 24% more vanillain was extracted when using 80 proof vs 190 proof alcohol. I went to the study and that was one of their conclusions. I admit to not being able to understand most of this study, but that was part of their conclusion.

So, I started this experiment. The pint jar on the left is 1oz (about 11 beans) of beans and 8oz Everclear 190. The jar on the right is .8oz beans (that's all I had left) plus 4oz Everclear 190 and 4 oz distilled water. This pic was shot about 24 hrs after the soak began with both jars shook up a bit. The jars were started about 5 minutes apart.

At this stage, the jar with diluted alcohol and 20% less bean is noticeably darker. That was a surprise.

I'm using the type B beans which are supposed to be best for extracting but they are drier. I went by the instructions for extracting that came with the beans.




I like the sound of that sugar method. One more experiment to try.

 

[sour_grapes]

So @joeswine

But one site that disagreed pointed to a serious study that said something like 24% more vanillain was extracted when using 80 proof vs 190 proof alcohol. I went to the study and that was one of their conclusions. I admit to not being able to understand most of this study, but that was part of their conclusion.

Would you mind posting a link to that site or that study?

 

[sour_grapes]

The agriculture of vanilla is truly amazing. Here is a short paper on the subject, if you are interested:

 

[reeflections]

The agriculture of vanilla is truly amazing. Here is a short paper on the subject, if you are interested:

Yes, that is more my level. thanks.

Here is what the other place referred to. Like I say, it was way over my head. I'm sure it's right up your alley.

https://nutrimenti1.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/vanillin.pdf

 

[Scooter68]

So.... Next time it's Vodka for vanilla extraction - regardless of what the FDA requires for commercial products. (Maybe there is some nefarious plot/reason for the FDA Mandate?)

 

[Raptor99]

So, I started this experiment. The pint jar on the left is 1oz (about 11 beans) of beans and 8oz Everclear 190. The jar on the right is .8oz beans (that's all I had left) plus 4oz Everclear 190 and 4 oz distilled water. This pic was shot about 24 hrs after the soak began with both jars shook up a bit. The jars were started about 5 minutes apart.

At this stage, the jar with diluted alcohol and 20% less bean is noticeably darker. That was a surprise.

I think that it is possible that there are some substances in the vanilla beans that are water soluble. The everclear has very little water, so less of those compounds are extracted. I don't understand most of the study that you attached, but I did notice that methods 2a and 2b used different concentrations of ethanol. The lower concentration extracted a little more vanillin and a lot more glucovanillin.

The big question is taste. What would be the result if you added the same quantity of each extract to some filtered water? Which tastes better?

 

[joeswine]

What you should find is that the extraction what the everclear is stronger stronger and flavor as opposed to the vodka provocative should be lighter in flavor which means use less of the alcohol extraction and more of the vodka extraction either way it's all according to what your taste buds like.

 

[joeswine]

If you're making a cello he above works if you're actually thinking of putting vanilla bean into wine and less is more absolutely less is more one bean goes a long way and it takes time for that being to Miller out in the wine in there seeing that done .
This would be considered an main case for less is more.

 

[reeflections]

The agriculture of vanilla is truly amazing. Here is a short paper on the subject, if you are interested:

Finally got around to reading this. Fascinating! Quite a history. Thanks.