Other Vacuum Degas: When is enough?

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AZMDTed

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For all you vacuum degassers, I need your assistance. This is my first batch that I'm trying to degas with the Harbor Freight electric vacuum pump. I was hoping for the 10 minute degas I've heard about. 10 minutes came and went, then 20, then 30 and bubbles were still coming up. They were small bubbles that quickly expanded on the surface, but they weren't the large bubbles that look more like boiling. After 30 minutes I turned the vacuum off, but left the carboy under vacuum and rocked it for about 20 seconds. The result is the last photo, lots of gas.

Here's what I don't know, when is enough enough? Do you see any indication in the photos that I did enough at some point, or should I keep working on it and wait for the boil bubbles to start?

The photos below were taken at about 2 minutes into it, then 10, 20, 30 and the shake after 30.

My set up is the pump, which runs into a ball valve, then a vacuum gauge, then a gallon jug to act as reservoir to keep the pump from sucking in fluid, then it's connected to the carboy with the orange carboy cover. I kept the vacuum at 25 inches for 20 minutes, then let it run full out at 28 for rest.

The wine temp was 74. This is an RJ Spagnols Super Tuscan, day 15.

Any suggestions?

bubbles 2 minutes.jpg

bubbles 10 minutes.jpg

bubbles 20 minutes.jpg

bubbles 30 minutes.jpg

Bubbles 33 minutes.jpg
 

jsbeckton

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Shoot for upper 70s. Even then it takes me 30-60m with a drill whip and it never actually stops giving off gas, just gives off less and less.
 

cmsben61

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Do you have a picture of your set-up? Which Harbor Freight vacuum pump did you use? I have been thinking about trying a pump from there. Thanks
 

terrymck

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What's the rush? Take some more time and every couple of days start the pump for 30 sec or so.

Is this the super Tuscan that uses 2 different kinds of yeast. I had one that was very gassy; it takes time. That wine will need some age anyway before it is any good.

Get some cheapy Fontana kits from Amazon and follow Joes directions for some early drinkers.
 

AZMDTed

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What's the rush? Take some more time and every couple of days start the pump for 30 sec or so.

Is this the super Tuscan that uses 2 different kinds of yeast. I had one that was very gassy; it takes time. That wine will need some age anyway before it is any good.

Get some cheapy Fontana kits from Amazon and follow Joes directions for some early drinkers.
It's this one from Harbor Freight:
http://www.harborfreight.com/25-cfm-vacuum-pump-98076.html

Here are just a couple pics from my set up. What's my hurry? Well for one thing I'm leaving tomorrow for 15 days. Plus with a wine cellar now I'd like to get it into there as soon as possible. The next step on these instructions say to get it under 68 degrees after day 14 (approximate degassing day). I would like to get them degassed and aging in my cooler, rather than my warm summer basement if I can. According to what I've heard and read, like from Vandergrifts article on vacuum degassing, it should only be 10 minute process. I think he might have said 30 seconds, but then again he also said that 4 minutes of wine whip is all you need. Somehow I'm losing faith in his word on this matter :)

Yes, this is that Super Tuscan, and it degassed a lot in secondary, so I was hoping that maybe their kits were easier at degassing and maybe my issue was with WE Eclipse kits, but alas.....

Orange cap.jpg

Overflow bottle.jpg
 
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richmke

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Well for one thing I'm leaving tomorrow for 15 days. Plus with a wine cellar now I'd like to get it into there as soon as possible.
Put an airlock on it, and put it in the wine cellar.

A month from now, rack with your vacuum setup, add k-meta, put a vented silicone bung on it, then put it back in the wine cellar.

Repeat every 3 months for 1 year.

It should be degassed by then.
 

AZMDTed

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From Vandergrifts post on vacuum degassing:

"You can leave the vacuum on for a few minutes, but most of the action will be over in less than 30 seconds after achieving a good pressure differential: it’s really quite impressive, foaming, bubbling, rushing and gushing and then, poof! It all settles quietly, with no further activity. Now that’s good degassing! You can proceed with the rest of your winemaking steps with nary a bubble or a fizz."

His degassing guidance is perplexing.
 

Johnd

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You should be done in just a few minutes if your temps are mid 70's and you're maxing out your vacuum right at 29 inHg. The wine will keep bubbling as long as you run the vacuum, but you're generally done when the little foamy bubbles turn to big ones.

If you're in doubt, take a taste to see if it's fizzy, or do the "poof" test. I've never had to go more than a few minutes. Add your stabilizing and clearing agents per the instructions, airlock it, put it in the cellar and forget about it til you get back.
 

vacuumpumpman

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@AZMDTed

I see only 1 picture that you are degassing - which was the last pic. - maily alot of small bubbles or foam -

All the other ones had large bubbles with your degassing - and or boiling of your wine.
 

bkisel

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@AZMDTed

I see only 1 picture that you are degassing - which was the last pic. - maily alot of small bubbles or foam -

All the other ones had large bubbles with your degassing - and or boiling of your wine.
" ...boiling of your wine." Steve, I know you don't mean literal boiling of the wine but what does it mean? Thanx...
 

Floandgary

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Despite technology and gizmos, yet another indicator that points to "TIME" as being the most important part of this hobby. As has been noted, if your wine has not been stabilized then it is still active (and likely still producing CO2). Again,,,, this is a hobby for most of us and not a commercial undertaking with deadlines.. :b
 

vacuumpumpman

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Yes
I actually ment boiling of your wine - take a look at this video and he is using water which has a higher boiling point than alcohol.


https://youtu.be/jn1X_I8-9h8

This is one of the reasons I don't suggest degassing the way you are
 
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Johnd

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An interesting excerpt from a WineMaker Magazine article by Tim Vandergrift on the subject. You can read the full article here if you like: https://winemakermag.com/537-operating-in-a-vacuum-wine-kits

"Some units, such as my vintage Gomco, have vacuum adjustment valves, allowing you to dial-in the amount of vacuum you want. Others simply keep pumping until they hit their maximum limit. Usually hitting 29 inches of mercury isn’t going to crack a nearly-filled carboy in good condition, but you may wish to dial it back.

You can leave the vacuum on for a few minutes, but most of the action will be over in less than 30 seconds after achieving a good pressure differential: it’s really quite impressive, foaming, bubbling, rushing and gushing and then, poof! It all settles quietly, with no further activity. Now that’s good degassing! You can proceed with the rest of your winemaking steps with nary a bubble or a fizz.

Whither Goest the Gas?

A couple of points for the curious: while hard vacuums have some interesting properties, you needn’t worry about most of them when using your home degassing unit. I’m speaking of the fractional volatilization of different substances in the wine. Theoretically, a hard enough vacuum will cause the liquid inside the carboy to boil — even at room temperature. To understand this, think about the instructions for cooking at high altitudes: they sometimes say things along the lines of “boil for an extra ten minutes for every 1,000 feet above sea-level.” This is because under lowered pressure water boils at a lower temperature. The opposite is true as well, of course. Inside pressure cookers things get hot, fast, as water boils at much higher temperatures.

So, will your wine boil? Nope. The vacuum you’ll be able to develop won’t actually be strong enough to boil water at room temperature. But what about alcohol? Alcohol already boils off at a much lower temperature than water, and most people have heard of vacuum stills. Can you de-alcoholize your wine under vacuum? Again, nope — or at least nope in terms that you can measure. While you may lose a few alcohol molecules to the vacuum process, it won’t be enough to affect the actual percentage of alcohol in your wine. Finally, what about sulfite? It can be pulled out of solution by the action of vacuum. In this case, the answer is actually “yep, but.” You can lose one or two parts per million (ppm) of free SO2 to a strong vacuum over a period of hours. However, a couple of parts per million are beneath the ability of most home tests to measure, and not enough to warrant the addition of any extra sulfite to your kit wine.

That’s pretty much all there is to it: if you want a fast, very effective, and permanent solution to your degassing worries — and you aren’t afraid of a little work adapting some non-traditional gear to your home winemaking tools, or perhaps spending a bit of cash on a cool commercial vacuum pump — you can be the first on your block to give up vigorous stirring for languid repose, saving the strength in your arms for hoisting a sample of your latest batch!

Tim Vandergrift is Technical Services Manager for Winexpert Limited. He writes the “Wine Kits” column in every issue of WineMaker, when not asking morticians for wine gear. "
 

vacuumpumpman

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@johnd
Did the u tube video show it boiling at room temperature ?

I personally witnessed a vacuum still for water purification purposes -
 
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AZMDTed

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I don't know if three unidentified guys in a basement equals science or truth. I was hoping for a college science professor or something.
 

vacuumpumpman

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I just googled it and it came up with all the scientific proof and data you are looking for - if you cant find it -

please pm me and I will give you the links as I know that we frown about alcohol distilling on this forum
 

bkisel

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Yes
I actually ment boiling of your wine - take a look at this video and he is using water which has a higher boiling point than alcohol.


https://youtu.be/jn1X_I8-9h8

This is one of the reasons I don't suggest degassing the way you are
Thanks Steve. The video that followed the one you linked me to showed the same thing happening and added a full and understandable explanation.
 

Johnd

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@johnd
Did the u tube video show it boiling at room temperature ?

I personally witnessed a vacuum still for water purification purposes -
Yes, I saw it, also saw it in grammar school science class, high school chemistry lab, it's a gas law that I understand quite well and studied in college.

I see it every time I degas wine with my vacuum pump too, foamy, fizzy CO2 blazing out of the wine, can't get out of there fast enough. Then I see the larger bubbles coming up. Pretty awesome stuff. That's when I stop, marvel at the technology of vacuum degassing, add KMS, and airlock, and set my wine aside to clear.

Vacuum distillation is a great technique, just not one I'm using on my wine, I'm just using physics to remove CO2. You don't have to, it's ok.........
 

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