Untoasted Oak

[Deezil]

I wanna get more familiar with untoasted oak & am looking for a quality source. probably cubes if i can be picky, i know i dont want shavings/powder.
How about anything other than American oak? Lots of that it seems, says Google .. Hungarian/French? Or are they all toasted?
Any who are curious, its supposed to add structure more than oak-flavors, but it is supposed to enhance fruity flavors in wines...

Anyone have a good source?

 

[robie]

I wanna get more familiar with untoasted oak & am looking for a quality source. probably cubes if i can be picky, i know i dont want shavings/powder.
How about anything other than American oak? Lots of that it seems, says Google .. Hungarian/French? Or are they all toasted?
Any who are curious, its supposed to add structure more than oak-flavors, but it is supposed to enhance fruity flavors in wines...

Anyone have a good source?

I have never heard that about untoasted oak, but I am interested in learning more. Give us as much info on this as you can get.

Thanks

 

[Deezil]

From what i've read..

Presque Isle has a massive bag

There's these guys, but i've never heard of them.. Third paragraph though.

A couple excerpts from this article:

"Untoasted oak is a rich source of hydrolysable tannins called ellagitannins, which break down in must to yield prodigious quantities of gallic acid, a powerful cofactor. The toasting process turns these useful small molecules into large polymers that won't form colloids. Toasted wood doesn't work to enhance color extraction. Worse, the barbecue aromas of toasted wood are amplified by yeast action to produce a strong Worcestershire aroma."

"Wines containing vegetal or microbial notes often can benefit from enhanced structure, which can serve to integrate these aromas into the background and allow them to merge with and support fruit character. Oak can be used to assist this process in several ways already discussed, such as anthocyanin extraction and structural supplementation. Oak introduced during primary fermentation can also provide sacrificial tannins that remove protein and deactivate yeast enzymes destructive to color. Structural enhancements call for extra wood, usually in the form of highquality, untoasted oak chips."

I cant really back up the information, but from what i've gathered;

It's added during primary fermentation of white (and im assuming fruit wines here, my line of thinking) to add structure and help negate some volatile acids (still trying to figure out the how on this), enhances the fruity profile of the given wine, stabilizes the color of the wine over time, without lending a lot of the characteristics found in toasted oaks - the spice/leather/smoke in heavy toasts or the caramel/vanilla/..oak? in medium toasts..

Still looking for more information myself..

 

[Deezil]

StaVin slideshow, 3rd & 5th slides

I had found these guys earlier but lost the link.. Anywho, they have Midwest listed on their suppliers - a link found on their Contact Us page - but the French Untoasted sounds like it'd be a lot of fun to get to know..

 

[bob1]

DeZill are we looking for a certain kind or just green oak? Or some cured oak. I like to put it in primary to help the yeast out but I have a ton of oak at the pit.

 

[Deezil]

Any oak you want to use in wine is cured for atleast 2 years, even the untoasted, from what i can gather... Most of it seems to be american white oak, and that seems to be the variety that adds the structure and such most articles are talking about..

From what Innerstave has to offer, it seems untoasted french oak might still bring some of those toasted components to the table, but thats fine if you use it on the right wine..

Both would have their place, if they indeed do what these articles suggest.

 

[robie]

Joe (joeswine) talks a lot about using oak for building body. He would be a great one to pass this on to for more info. It does sound like it would work, but not add any oakiness to the wine. Joe is a big user of oak powder.

Hopefully Joe will comment.

 

[bob1]

I didnt see the article before came back and read it. Nice read. I use light toasted oak in primary always thought it was just to help out keeping yeast in suspension. Guess it does more. I also see that I have never seen the untoasted chips.

 

[Boatboy24]

This was very helpful to me:

http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/oakinfopaper09.pdf

 

[Deezil]

If i cant find anything else, maybe i'll start here

 

[Deezil]

I love google

While searching, i came upon this WMT recipe

Just wish there was feedback on it

 

[robie]

I love google

While searching, i came upon this WMT recipe

Just wish there was feedback on it

Well, if it took Best of Show, it must be pretty good. Give it a try!
I think I would use something besides Alexander's; maybe a nice kit red.
I would think an Alexander's Burgundy would be a Pinot Noir. Of course that might change up things like how much acid blend.

 

[Deezil]

What drove me into looking into this was my exploration into increasing body/mouthfeel/structure in fruit wines... without getting into all the commercially-named additives... But im gonna try it on an upcoming batch of mead - aiming for about 16 gallons (3 5-gallon carboys + 1-gallon for top-up); gonna leave one 5 gallon unoaked, 2oz in the 2nd & 4oz in the 3rd.. Then see what happens..

Also considering using it on some blackberry-cherry melomel (or maybe hungarian medium, or both) & maybe even red raspberry & gold raspberry that i have aging if i like the results...

Thats why im thinking about the 1.lb bag

 

[robie]

What drove me into looking into this was my exploration into increasing body/mouthfeel/structure in fruit wines... without getting into all the commercially-named additives... But im gonna try it on an upcoming batch of mead - aiming for about 16 gallons (3 5-gallon carboys + 1-gallon for top-up); gonna leave one 5 gallon unoaked, 2oz in the 2nd & 4oz in the 3rd.. Then see what happens..

Also considering using it on some blackberry-cherry melomel (or maybe hungarian medium, or both) & maybe even red raspberry & gold raspberry that i have aging if i like the results...

Thats why im thinking about the 1.lb bag

Wouldn't untoasted oak still add some sort of woody taste to the wine?

 

[Deezil]

It could...? I plan on finding out.. Most of the mead will be used in blending with fruit wines so its not a big deal to me, at this point..

I've also read instructions saying to boil the oak for 15-20 minutes before adding, but that was only once/twice...

 

[robie]

It could...? I plan on finding out.. Most of the mead will be used in blending with fruit wines so its not a big deal to me, at this point..

I've also read instructions saying to boil the oak for 15-20 minutes before adding, but that was only once/twice...

That's a good way to find out. Please share your results with us.

 

[jswordy]

I have some 2-year seasoned American red oak firewood, and I am tempted to split out a clean chunk and hang it in a 750 ml bottle of wine just to see if it would work!

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

I have some 2-year seasoned American red oak firewood, and I am tempted to split out a clean chunk and hang it in a 750 ml bottle of wine just to see if it would work!

Yes I would be interested too in your test. All documented use I have read is Red Oak imparts a cat urine quality to wine and it is not used for barrels because it is very porous.

 

[Deezil]

So there i was, reading through the Winemakers Magazine (not sure which one) and i seen this advert on the bottom of the page...

So i called em up, just got off the phone...

Come to find out, Xtra Oak offers a "Plain" oak chip - either french or american

They arent "untoasted" because they go through a small heating process but i believe its just to condition the wood further, the lady on the phone said it was the equivalent of "untoasted" just wasnt "raw wood"

Solves the "source" question.. Now i just gotta prove to myself that it does what i've read it does... Or prove it doesnt.. Stay tuned for that

 

[robie]

vegetal and herbaceous aromas and flavors

Manley,

Thanks for introducing this thread; it has gotten me interested.

After studying this process myself and then ending up with a vegetal/herbaceous wine from fresh grapes (so strong it is overwhelming), I have read that it is untoasted oak powder that has the greatest affect on vegetal in reds, compared to chips and cubes. Many, even larger wineries routinely put untoasted American oak powder in about every fermentation just to make sure, in case a vegetal aroma/flavor happens to be present.

During fermentation, the powder doesn't have much affect on oak flavoring in the wine. Vegetal can sneak up on a wine maker and is much more difficult to get rid of after fermentation is done. Certain yeast strains can certainly reduce vegetal. After fermentation is complete, things like long barrel aging, certain tannins and even large doses of bentonite can be used, but just not as effectively.

Again, in this case it is the powder, rather than chips or cubes, that seems to be preferred. Of course I am sure there are exceptions and any form of untoasted oak should help.

Thanks again.