Treatise on Winemaking

[JimCook]

As I approach the dawn of my fourth year of winemaking, I am taking a moment to reflect back on that which I have experienced and learned so it may be a resource for others on the same path. The journey started with a bit of research, then a two-hour phone conversation with George (before I ordered anything, mind you), and the purchase of my first three kits and the equipment necessary to start them. Since that time, I have made more than forty different wines, have experimented with alternative oaking, dabbled into additives, investigated alternative yeast usage, made wine from kits and fruit and fresh and frozen grapes.


In the beginning, I remember asking George what comparative value of commercial wine I could potentially make from a kit wine. At this point, I realize that that simply isn't a relevant question. Kit wine and commercial wines are for me not comparable. Having tasted several thousand different commercial wines, I have yet to taste a kit wine that would compare to a $20 bottle of commercial wine that I felt was good. And yet this is not a bad thing - kit wine is literally a watered down version of the real thing. And yet kit wine still has a place for me and here is why...


1) As kit wines are thin compared to the commercial wine I drink, I have realized that the 'bigger' the red, the less a kit will compare. But since white wines are generally lighter, kit whites are much closer to commercial equivalents.
2) Kit wines provided the sandbox for me to safely play and eventually experiment, learning different techniques in winemaking before being called to attempt the 'real thing' - wine from grapes from California, in this casea.
3) Kit wines will not be able to replace my commercial wine spending but still works as a table wine - something that is just fine to drink for normal circumstances.


After making wine from grapes (Brehm pails ordered through George as well as Lodi Old Vine Zinfandel grapes that were shipped and stored refrigerated nearby), the difference between grape and kit wine is night and day. Looking at an ingredient label on a kit I had recently made confirmed that the bigger red wine that I was looking for would only come from wine where I could influence the skin contact.


And so I begin my next quest - searching for a way to allow for more skin contact with a kit to see if I can boost these wines into something that is more pleasing for me while looking for grape options as well. And yet all along, if it weren't for these kits that I have, am, and will make, I likely would not have gotten the courage to attempt winemaking with the real thing.


I have to thank George for answering my many questions and addressing my concerns as I've taken this journey up until this point. I am so happy that my initial experience was with George - through that I have been able to both physically and virtually meet other cool winemakers and also watch George's business grow and expand. I am personally very excited to see how George moves into the years ahead and how this industry grows and changes. I'm looking forward to seeing the developments in this industry and to continue on my quest to make great wine.


Even as I open bottles from wines that I had started a couple years ago, I fondly appreciate and recollect the time and energy that went into each of those bottles, as well as the learning experiences that came from this process that the people on this forum pursue - that amazing transformation of sugar into carbon dioxide and alcohol.


So tonight, I willraise a glass of wine at home and toast winemaking, George, and the future of it all, while I try and decide which limited edition kits to consider this time around. I encourage each of you to stretch out and try something different with the wine that you make. If you haven't ever tried a limited edition kit, give George a call before the end of the month and place an order. I firmly believe this is one 'risk' from which you will directly experience the rewards.


Winemaking for me is not a destination - it's a journey. Much like the object of people who are dancing is not to get to the other side, but to enjoy the experience of it all, I too am quite enjoying my trip into the world of making my own wine.


May your grapes be fresh and your yeast active.


- Jim

 

[xanxer82]

As to the part with grape skin contact. Would tossing a few stainless steel ball berrings into the strainer bag help keep the skins submersed better and thus increase yeast/enzyme contact?

 

[Runningwolf]

Jim, that was pretty cool and well said. I have only been making wine for a year now and have made about 20 kits and started about six batches from juice. It is truly a journey I would not have even considered if it wasn't for the kits. As far as the limited editions go you can see in my signature I have several ordered.

 

[Darryl]

BRAVO Jim!!!!!!!!!!


Wow, very well put... Were you wondering around in my head???? I read you post, and thought, he just answered several of my questions on winemaking...
Jim, I don't know where you live, but would love to sit and share a bottle of wine and pick your brain!!!! I have been making wine(kits) for a year... tring to learn and make the best quality wine I can... I know what I like in a commercial wine, and I try to match... I look at winemaking the same as you... It is a journey and an adventure... always more to learn and share!!!! I also agree that George is a wealth of knowledge... easy to talk too... Very helpfull... I whish him all best!!!!


Keep up the good work, and I will keep reading!!!
Thanks for all of your help,

 

[rhoffart]

Good read …<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

I have a question …

You put all kit wines in one category “kit wine is literally a watered down version of the real thing” … is that true … even to the Meglioli’s of the world?

In your journey have you made many “all juice” kits?

I’d like to hear you feedback on this … I am currently purchasing the best I can get in kits … but now I’m second guessing myself if I’m going to end up with wine that can’t top a $10 bottle of wine …thanks

 

[AlFulchino]

"
Winemaking for me is not a destination - it's a journey"

exactly...a lot of anxiety could be put aside if this concept could be grasped ...but it is human nature to relax *only after* some experience is under one's belt...prior to that i feel that many who get into wine making are seeking a bit of the history to identify with...and/or the memories of childhood....and/or a little bit of the wine making image/ and or is under pressure to not fail because they dont want to blow the cost of the kit/grapes/equipment.....failure is a thing most people have some degree of anxiety about...and that puts some undue pressure on the new wine maker...but it is self induced....time and practice will bring every serious wine maker to understand what the journey's value is...and that value is meant to be simple enjoyment

 

[admiral]

Well said Jim. I believe that honest reflection is a skill upon which the future is built. It is something we should all do and you have given us a good example. Thank you.

 

[NEBama]

Well said Jim this is a journey.Al

 

[Brewgrrrl]

Nicely put. I've only been doing this a couple of years myself, but I completely agree with kits being a nice starting point. I don't know if I would have made the "leap" from brewing to wine-making if there hadn't been ready-made kits. The first time I did a pail of freshjuice though I was kicking myself for not trying it sooner - how could something so easy be so delicious?


What I also really love about this is the practically endless variety of wines one can make at home (including fruit wines and meads, which are my current passion). I think it's Joanwho is also fond of pointing out thatthere are as many ways of making wine as there are people who make them... I love that.

 

[JimCook]

Points for clarification and answers to questions in the above posts...


Dan (xanxer82) - I personally feel that while the addition of a grape pack definitely helps a wine being made, the amount of skin contact provided is far below that which is experienced when making wine from fresh grapes. My comment about skin contact was directed more at a the ration of skins to the liquid of the must more than the actual handling of a grape pack. Without a press, some kind of straining bag or muslin grain bag would be a necessity when working with grape packs. Twice-daily stirring simulating 'punching down the cap' will help there as well and I do that instead of introducing metal into the wine - just my preference.


Dan (runningwolf) - Excellent job on the production and diving into the limited edition kits. I encourage everyone that has the means to purchase one of these kits from George. Even if you are anxious about it, as Al had discussed above, it will help you develop as a winemaker.


Darryl - I live in the northwest suburbs of Chicago, IL. In lieu of sharing some wine based on distance restrictions, feel free to private message me through this forum if you have any questions that you wanted to ask me directly.


Rick - Allow me to clarify my statements. Firstly, the price range of the commercial wine that I drink ranges on average from $8-35+/bottle. I will confidently say that some of the wine that I have made would definitely stand up against a $10 bottle, but know that price range is not normally my target. Looking at this from a value perspective, if I am paying $5/bottle to make wine and end up with a bottle that compares to some $10 commercial bottles, I'm happy with that. If the cost instead is around$8-10/bottle and I'm making equivalent $10-12/bottle wine, I am not happy. My Meglioli wines have not had enough time in the bottle to develop into what they can become. As Wade had purchased a month or two ago - he had tried a three- or four-year old bottle of Meglioli wine and proclaimed it the absolute best kit wine he has ever tasted.


Know that kit wines 'cheat' the idea of a seasonal harvest and fermentation of wine. We can buy kit wines any time of the year and start a batch just the same. The price for this, however, is a deviation from the 'purity' of the source product that would otherwise be had if we were to go harvest a bunch of grapes, smash them up and then start fermenting. While the latter path can generally only be performed in the fall (outside of frozen pail options), kits can technically be ordered, started, and bottled all inside of about 5-7 weeks. So, in the generalist manner in which my statement was directed, kit wines are a deviation from pure grape juice products as a manner of being able to make them year-round.


Given that statement, all kit wines will fall into the category of being manipulated to prevent/deter/prolong spoilage, to make a workable product that provides consistent results even if people don't follow the directions exactly, and to provide a drinkable product that the wine kit manufacturers hope will encourage repeat purchases (the business side of things). So, even a Meglioli is different than the real grape method. At Winestock 2009, Nino had noted that the Meglioli starts with a higher grade product - herein is a difference between Meglioli products and other wine kits. While Winexpert may be just sourcing 'different' fruit, Mosti is providing truly a higher grade product. So if you are purchasing the best quality kits you can make, know that you will likely be making the best wine that you can make from kits.


I have purchased many of the Mosti 'AllJuice' line of kits. Do know that the AllJuice meaning leans toward 'no water added' as opposed to 'all varietal juice.' I have not made wine from pure juice, perhaps a step between kits and fresh grapes, but have made wine from fresh/frozen grapes. And it was that experience that first exposed me the difference in concentration of aroma, flavor, and color between the two methods of winemaking.


United States labelling laws require that any ingredients be listed in order of descending overall concentration. So, when a wine kit shows that it is first 'grape juice concentrate' and then water and then sugar and then varietal grape juice, I know that the percentage of varietal grape juice is less than the percentage of sugar in the kit. Given that information, if the sugar ends up being around 22% by weight, for instance, then the varietal grape juice percentage should be less than 22%. This refers back to the price of having year-round availability of kits compared to batches started only in the fall. My statement about kits being a reduced version of the real thing is simply referring to the amount of varietal grape juice and lack of skin contact available in kits compared to fresh grapes - that's all.


Note well that while I present all of this information, it is all based on my subjective taste experiences, and nothing more. You may find that you enjoy the wine that you make after only three months. You may enjoy 10.5L kits and be happy as a clam with these. And if that is the case, then I encourage you to continue to make what makes you happy, another one of the important lessons I have had confirmed through winemaking. There is no need to be second guess your choice to make the best kits available. If you have any further questions, please feel free to private message me.


To the rest of those that responded and/or read: note that I am taking a moment in this thread to chronicle my journey that started with kit wines. It does not mean that I will necessarily end with kit wines, but they have played a critical role in my development as a winemaker and I do not regret for a moment any of the kits that I have purchased or experiments that I have tried, as these experiences have given me the skills and experience that I currently have. Also note that I am still purchasing kit wines, and I encourage you to do so as well. Call George up and try something new - purchase a kit made by RJ Spagnols, for instance, if you haven't made one of theirs - purchase a kit that's a little bit higher level than you have previously made (if available) - purchase a type ofkit that you haven't tried yet. It is only through this expansion of our mental safety zones that we will grow and through all of the posts that are on this forum on such a regular basis, I don't see many people that don't actually want to learn something. Celebrate this and take advantage of the great resource that is George and his store that you have within reach and then post onto this forum what you've learned from trying new things. When we all share our knowledge here, we will grow faster than any one of us could have done alone.


- Jim

 

[AlFulchino]

what i like about this topic is that it has got me thinking and maybe being a bit philosophical about wine making.....while on a drive home from our state capitol this morning for some reason this topic popped into my head....this concept floated before my minds eye......winemaking is not about being a winemaker...its about taking grapes or their other forms (kits etc) and letting us discover them

THERFORE

no matter what we try...what we attempt...there is NO wrong in the effort to find out what works...what tastes good.....there is only right in that...

there is only right in finding out what principles work.....and that show us that repeating something will yield similar results...good or bad....only THAT is on us

grapes/wine teach...your just a student passing through.....the grapes will be here after we are gone....

 

[rhoffart]

Jim, thanks for your time and effort in your response and original post. I want you to know that you and others like you are mentors to me. Personally I don’t like the learning curve and like to get from point A to point B as quick as possible. Maybe sometimes I come across as someone always trying to challenge what people say and do … but this is my nature to dig deeper, over-analyze, and try to read into what someone say, maybe even more then what was originally said. In winemaking I might be happy buying 5 more $200 kitsand in 2 years having a bunch of good wine. I prefer spending the same monies and in 2 years having 30 bottles of the best wine I ever had … and it’s something I made.
<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><O></O>
Ten years ago I wanted to buy a “Harley”. Well since I never rode a street bike everyone told me to buy a Sportster “it’s light and east to handle”. Then in a few years you will want to upgrade to a Dyna “it’s a little bigger and can keep up with the big boys”. Then a few years later you will want a “big cruiser”. Well I wasn’t happy with that and went to a biker bar and openly started asking questions and chatting with biker dudes. As a result, I took a safety driving course and bought a 750 lb. Road King Classic. Yes, I was freaked out the first few time I rode it but I think I cut a few years off the learning curve and I still have that bike today and love it.
<O></O>So, if it sounds like I am a little challenging sometimes … it’s just my nature, trying to shorten that learning curve. I have the most respectfor you and others here like you. Thanks

 

[Wade E]

Good write up but I havent tasted many commercial or homemade wines that have as much body as the RJS Winery Series and EP's have. I dont go buying a lot of commercial wines anymore but still do drink a few here and there. Cant say Im buying no $50m Merlot either though.

 

[ibglowin]

Anyone else feel kinda like "why am I bothering" after reading Jim's post?

I sure did......

Since I have made nothing but the premium kits my stuff better not taste like "watered down wine" next Summer or there will be a load of carboys for sale on craigslist......

My little taste test when racking certainly don't taste watered down in the least, only green.

I have been enjoying this new hobby/obsession since July and the thought that I can't produce something comparable to ANY type of commercial wine is downright hard to handle at the moment.

 

[Dean]

The addition of tannins make kit wines have more structure, and thus, closer to commercial counter parts. Of course this is all depending on style of wine too. You would not want heavy tannins in a Burgundy clone, nor would you want them in a Chateauneuf du Pape clone.

The higher end kits, and more specifically, those with grape packs have more TDS that most other kits. Even the RJS EP lineup now comes with winery dried skins.

With both the skins and tannins like Tan'Cor Grand Cru, you can get a wine that is just as big and bold as many commercial wines. The final step as a home wine-maker looking to take kits to taste of BIG reds, is to age them in barrels to get the concentration effect. So, in a way, I disagree with your statement that kits cannot be like commercial wines. They certainly can! Meglioli, RJS EP and Winery Series, and Cellar Craft Showcase kits can achieve that. You as the winemaker just need to use the tools at your disposal (additives) to ensure it meets your taste requirements.

The one thing to note about BIG reds is that the bigger the red, the longer it takes to even become palatable. I made a bordeaux blend a few years ago, that I'm sure I'm going to have to change corks on as it ages. This wine had great structure and a hint of fruit that should come out in 2014 or so.

I never buy commercial whites anymore, unless it is to try a varietal that I've not had, nor is available by kit, like Albarino (Great heavy white!).

 

[JimCook]

Let me once again preface this post with the statement that my comments are completely subjective and they are based on my own taste experience, as that is the limiting factor I (and anyone else) must deal with. That being stated...
Mike - I'm sorry to hear that the meaning of my post was perhaps obfuscated by the statement of my development in wine making over the past few years. Note that in my posts I stated that if it were not for making kit wines, I would not be where I am today and that I have no regrets in regards to this and that I am still purchasing kit wines today.


There are people on this forum that are perfectly happy drinking &lt;$5/bottle commercial wine. There are other people on this forum who drink primarily home-made wines (kit, fruit, whatever) and again, are perfectly happy. My tastes are discriminating on a wider spectrum and this will address Dean's post as well...


I will not purchase any kit that states that it makes an Australian style Shiraz, as I am quite confident it simply cannot compare to what enjoy in a wine of this type. For anyone that is doubting, go out and purchase a bottle of Two Hands Angel's Share Shiraz (or most any other Two Hands wines), any of the Mollydooker wines, anything from Kaesler or Glaetzer wineries, etc. I personally do not enjoy Yellow Tail wine. If you are reading this post and feel that Yellow Tail wine is a big red that you enjoy, then that is great. My specific taste preferences, however, prefer other wines, and for the record, I have tasted hundreds of Australian wines ranging in price from $5-$220/bottle and no, I am not comparing a kit wine to a $200 bottle.


I can say that the WE Chardonnay that I had made when I first started out currently tastes comparable to some Chardonnay wine that would cost in the $10-$17 range. I am quite pleased with the taste, although a 'lightness' to the feel of this wine is more acceptable since it is a white.


Given the other categories of red wines, if I were to pick a wine that I enjoyed as a 'favorite' in a particular price point, especially with reds, it's harder and harder for a kit wine to compare (again, given my particular tastes). Please do not get hung up on specific words that I have used to attempt to document my realizations and instead try to look at the whole picture that I am attempting to portray. I certainly did not state that the wine I made tastes like I took a couple drops of wine and put it into water for the resultant product.


Mike, there is most certainly a reason that you started into the hobby of home winemaking. My initial reasons were to attempt to replace some or most of the commercial wine expenditures that I had on a yearly basis ($5,000 can get an okay amount of wine in a year, for instance). In this process, I have realized that for me kit wines will not replace what I had originally hoped for, but I learned some very valuable lessons along the way...


1) Most importantly to me, I have noticed that my sense of smell and taste have improved and I am attributing this to the winemaking process. For instance, I once smelledthe clovearoma of mySaran-wrapped Hungarian medium-toast barrel from five feet away while walking. This sensory development that I attribute as a benefit of paying close attention to what is happening with my developing wines is worth every bit of all of the time I have spent making wine even if I didn't get to drink anything that I made.


2) As Al was commenting on, I learned that winemaking is not a destination (my original goal), but was a journey... a transformation of myself and my ideas and my skills and my appreciation level for different wine. Even if I find that a wine is not what I would rank into my favorites, I do not just chuck this wine aside and say, 'Bad Wine!' I have an appreciation for these wines for what they are, almost like looking at art first as the wonder that it is and then as what it says to you personally. Have you ever looked at wine ratings? Ever wonder how Robert Parker can rate a $1,000 bottle an 88 and a $8 bottle an 88. Do you really think they are the exact same caliber of wine? Not necessarily, and this is the way I now approach wine, which has opened up my potential for expanded taste experiences.


3) I realized that there are other areas of my life where I felt comfortable stretching into challenging territory and when I started making wine, I was a little reserved. By realizing that I needed to stretch in all things, it caused me to investigate more and more about the process and techniques in wine making. I contacted commercial vineyard owners and winemakers and sent them e-mails asking them specific questions while explaining my situation as a home winemaker. The responses I received helped encourage me to follow specific paths in the quest to make better wine. Did I expect to make wine from kits that would compare to the best wines that I have ever tasted? No, as I have tasted a very large range of wines. Did I hope to make wine that would taste good and help to make better and better wine later on? Yes. This is a growing process. Rick - never apologize for wanting to shorten the learning curve. Robert Ringer wrote about the Leapfrog Technique in his book Winning Through Intimidation - anything you can do to shorten the learning curve will speed you on to greater things, if that is your desire.


4) I have realized that our taste perceptions are influenced so very much by the range of taste experiences we expose ourselves to. While this is related to item #3, it boils down to this: If you only drink kit Pinot Noir wine, for instance, you will have a certain perception about what Pinot Noir tastes like. Your perception will be different than mine as I taste Pinot Noir of a large price range from California, New Zealand, Washington, Oregon, France, Italy, Argentina, etc. Does this mean that either of us is better or worse than the next guy? Absolutely not! It just goes to show you that the fourth item in this list that I've learned is that a huge chunk of the experience of wine making is completely subjective. To put it more plainly - your tastes aren't necessarily my tastes... and that's okay.


Mike, go buy some more kits from George. Make them, enjoy them, learn from them and then in a year or two, post up what you have learned about your incredible journey through winemaking. My posts are not meant to discourage people in the least - everything I've noted in my posts is that all of these things came about because someone convinced me that I should make my own wine and I ended up calling George and then I decided to take action and the rest is the history I have attempted to nutshell in this medium.


If you aren't learning, you aren't going anywhere. I am very proud of the wine that I have made to date, because it gives me great hope as to what I will be able to make in the future.


- Jim

 

[Joanie]

Anyone else feel kinda like "why am I bothering" after reading Jim's post?



I sure did......



Since I have made nothing but the premium kits my stuff better not taste like "watered down wine" next Summer or there will be a load of carboys for sale on craigslist......



My little taste test when racking certainly don't taste watered down in the least, only green.



I have been enjoying this new hobby/obsession since July and the thought that I can't produce something comparable to ANY type of commercial wine is downright hard to handle at the moment.

Mike...

The reasons for making wine are as different as the techniques people use to make it. It's one of the beauties of this "sport". I don't really drink wine (or much else) but I make a lot of wine. I make it because it's a great hobby. It's fun, challenging, rewarding, and I have made a lot of friends in the process...those here and in real life. I make wine becaue I love the smell of fermenting fruit and yeast. I make wine so I can share it with friends. It brings me pleasure to hear friends say they like my wine. That being said I'm sure there are few people who make wine for the same reasons I do.

Mike, never underestimate your reasons for making wine. They are just as valid as the next person's.

I believe that although a kit wine may not be as good as it's commercial counterpart, the time and care I put into it makes it far better than any commercial wine because it's all made "by hand"...my hand. It will taste better because I have made it.

 

[ibglowin]

Excellent post. You have given all of us a lot to digest and think about.

This should still be a very fun an interesting "journey" no matter where it takes all of us.And we will all have different journeys to be sure.

This forum is certainly THE best place to share your thoughts on the subject at hand.

 

[Goodfella]

Anyone else feel kinda like "why am I bothering" after reading Jim's post?

I sure did......

I look at it like this.... There is no reason I can't make wine just as good as someone else, They are just people too... It may take me some time, as it probably took them some time.


But, for me it's not only about that.Wine making issomething that I can use to consume my mind when I am bored. It's something I enjoy watching someone's reaction and excitement when I tell them I make wine, or tell them more about how wine is made. for me it's not just about drinking the wine... it's about using imagination to create labels, it's the decor of the equipment in the house (barrels, ect.), I even made a website for my winemaking hobby. It's all the extras that surround wine making that i am enjoying just as much as a glass of good wine!!!


Don't be discouraged, just love what you do, and it will show in your wine.

 

[ibglowin]

For a minute there I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of kit wine makers voices suddenly cried out in terror and then were suddenly silenced..............