Transfer before bottling

[matsgone]

Good day all,

Still a newbie (only 5 kits done, only 2 bottled)...question is, if I bottle a red which has been sitting in secondary for 6 months, should I transfert to a bottling vessel before actually bottling? Do wine get layered after sitting still for long period of time or will it stay exactly the same from the surface to the bottom?

I bottled a red that was in secondary for +-1 month (Before I read here that over 6 months is gooder)....and so far, the 4 bottles I opened were not the same at all....one was even fizzy....which should be impossible because I added the chemical which should stop the fermentation.....unless I didnt stir enough and the layering occured???????????? Dont know............. any ideas??

 

[Rocky]

I am not aware of any "layering" that takes place in a carboy. If I understand your note correctly, you bottled a red after a month or so. You have opened 4 bottles so far and they are inconsistent and one of the four was "fizzy." I assume the other three were not. I don't know how one could be a 3 are not unless there was something in that particular bottle that caused the fizz. In any case, it sounds like the wine was not fully degassed.

You will get a number of different answers to bulk aging terms. Personally, I try to age my reds at least 1 year in bulk, sulfiting with 1/4 teaspoon of Potassium Metabisulfite every 4 months. I rack and sulfite one last time just before bottling to get the last of the sediment, which is usually minimal.

I am curious, what chemical did you add to "stop the fermentation?"

 

[matsgone]

I am not aware of any "layering" that takes place in a carboy. If I understand your note correctly, you bottled a red after a month or so. You have opened 4 bottles so far and they are inconsistent and one of the four was "fizzy." I assume the other three were not. I don't know how one could be a 3 are not unless there was something in that particular bottle that caused the fizz. In any case, it sounds like the wine was not fully degassed.

You will get a number of different answers to bulk aging terms. Personally, I try to age my reds at least 1 year in bulk, sulfiting with 1/4 teaspoon of Potassium Metabisulfite every 4 months. I rack and sulfite one last time just before bottling to get the last of the sediment, which is usually minimal.

I am curious, what chemical did you add to "stop the fermentation?"

Yes you understand properly. I dont remember the name of the chemical, it is part of the kit. I will check when I get home. If the wine had not been degassed properly, all bottles would be "fizzy". I now have 3 kits in carboy for over 4-6 months, was thinking of bottling soon. I am not very big on adding more sulfites(or any chemicals) that is absolutely needed......do you really need to add 1/4tspn every 4 months?? Ok so you do rack into a bottling vessel before bottling then??

 

[winemaker81]

First -- to the best of my knowledge, there is no food grade chemical, other than high proof spirits, that will stop a fermentation. Potassium sorbate works in conjunction with K-meta to prevent a renewed fermentation, but it does not stop an active fermentation. If you had an active fermentation, adding sorbate will NOT stop it.

The wine bottled at 1 month was not ready to bottle -- from your description it was either still fermenting or was not degassed, enough for some bottles to sparkle. This can be a problem, as you can blow corks. Unless you are using bottles designed for pressure (champagne bottles or poptop beer bottles), DO NOT apply any enclosures that prevent the cork from popping. Bottles are either rated for pressure, or are unrated which means they are not guaranteed to safely hold any pressure.

I've found that wine aged with oak product will have different levels of oak flavoring closer and farther away from the oak. Wine is not necessarily well distributed, so the young wine exhibited differences between bottles.

At bottling time I rack the wine a final time, and add K-meta to the receiving container at the start of the siphon, and stir half way through and at the end to ensure the K-meta is well distributed.

Everything in the kit is there for a specific reason. K-meta is an anti-oxidant and preservative. My experience is that wines made without K-meta have a significantly shorter shelf life.

 

[Rocky]

Yes, you understand properly. I don't remember the name of the chemical; it is part of the kit. I will check when I get home. If the wine had not been degassed properly, all bottles would be "fizzy". I now have 3 kits in carboy for over 4-6 months, was thinking of bottling soon. I am not very big on adding more sulfites (or any chemicals) that is absolutely needed......do you really need to add 1/4 tsp. every 4 months?? Ok so you do rack into a bottling vessel before bottling then??

If it was part of the kit, it is likely Potassium Metabisulfite, Potassium Sorbate or a combination of the two chemicals. See Bryan's more complete answer above. That is essentially what I do and why I do it.

 

[VinesnBines]

Ok so you do rack into a bottling vessel before bottling then??

As Winemaker_81 says, I like to rack to anther carboy before bottling to get the wine off the sediment. There will be sediment after bulk aging for several months. Sometimes I remember to add k-meta. Usually I will immediately bottle and other times I will wait a few days/ it depends on my schedule.

Your fizzy wine was not degassed and it is possible that three bottles were degassed better by the racking or it could be that the fourth bottle had a little residual yeast (especially if it was the last bottle from the carboy) and had refermented enough to get fizzy but not push the cork.

 

[matsgone]

First -- to the best of my knowledge, there is no food grade chemical, other than high proof spirits, that will stop a fermentation. Potassium sorbate works in conjunction with K-meta to prevent a renewed fermentation, but it does not stop an active fermentation. If you had an active fermentation, adding sorbate will NOT stop it.

The wine bottled at 1 month was not ready to bottle -- from your description it was either still fermenting or was not degassed, enough for some bottles to sparkle. This can be a problem, as you can blow corks. Unless you are using bottles designed for pressure (champagne bottles or poptop beer bottles), DO NOT apply any enclosures that prevent the cork from popping. Bottles are either rated for pressure, or are unrated which means they are not guaranteed to safely hold any pressure.

I've found that wine aged with oak product will have different levels of oak flavoring closer and farther away from the oak. Wine is not necessarily well distributed, so the young wine exhibited differences between bottles.

At bottling time I rack the wine a final time, and add K-meta to the receiving container at the start of the siphon, and stir half way through and at the end to ensure the K-meta is well distributed.

Everything in the kit is there for a specific reason. K-meta is an anti-oxidant and preservative. My experience is that wines made without K-meta have a significantly shorter shelf life.

Yes it was Potassium Sorbate I was talking about, I had read the purpose was to stop fermentation but you are right...it is to prevent refermentation...my bad.

Anyhow, the problem should be fixed for the next batches since I now leave the wine in secondary for 6 months minimum. I have read on this forum that I should not have to degas the wine if left in secondary for 6 months as it will naturally degas......what is your thought on that?

Second question, you add K-meta before bottling. My kit(RJS) does not include more K-meta as they do not recommend leaving the wine for so long before bottling. So your advice is to buy extra K-meta and add it before bottling? How much should I add?

You say "DO NOT apply any enclosures that prevent the cork from popping" but after 6 months in secondary, is this still valid or I can use the heat shrink PVC thingies?? Are these a good idea?

Last 2 batch I used cork, the most expensive I could find(thinking quality would be better), one bottle of the +25 I have had tasted like cork which we could not drink....is this normal...acceptable loss or the synthetic option is better?

WOW Who would have thought making wine was so complicated.....I though brewing beer from grain was the shitzzz haha....wine seems to be even more complicated.....

Thank a lot for all the help!!! CHEERS!!

 

[Rocky]

Anyhow, the problem should be fixed for the next batches since I now leave the wine in secondary for 6 months minimum. I have read on this forum that I should not have to degas the wine if left in secondary for 6 months as it will naturally degas......what is your thought on that?

Second question, you add K-meta before bottling. My kit(RJS) does not include more K-meta as they do not recommend leaving the wine for so long before bottling. So your advice is to buy extra K-meta and add it before bottling? How much should I add?

You say "DO NOT apply any enclosures that prevent the cork from popping" but after 6 months in secondary, is this still valid or I can use the heat shrink PVC thingies?? Are these a good idea?

Last 2 batch I used cork, the most expensive I could find(thinking quality would be better), one bottle of the +25 I have had tasted like cork which we could not drink....is this normal...acceptable loss or the synthetic option is better?

WOW Who would have thought making wine was so complicated.....I though brewing beer from grain was the shitzzz haha....wine seems to be even more complicated.....

Thank a lot for all the help!!! CHEERS!!

Do your kit instructions not contain this paragraph?

"4. De-gas wine vigorously for approximately 5 minutes by stirring with the handle of a sanitized spoon, or with a drill mounted stirring device. Insufficient stirring will prevent the wine from clearing adequately."

That should be enough degassing if done properly.

Yes, you should buy Potassium Metabisulfite, both for additions during bulk aging and for mixing a sanitizing solution for your equipment (3 tablespoons of K-meta per 1 gallon of water). The amount to add to wine for protection against spoilage is 1/4 teaspoon for 6 gallons of wine. A 1-pound bag of K-meta costs around $6.

After 6 months in bulk aging and proper degassing during the wine making process, you can safely add the vinyl toppers.

Personally, never had a "cork taste" when I was using either natural or agglomerated corks. I have switched to Nomacorcs, exclusively. If you still have the natural corks, you might try putting them in a colander and doing a light cold-water rinse. Could have been some cork dust on the ones you used.

 

[matsgone]

Do your kit instructions not contain this paragraph?

"4. De-gas wine vigorously for approximately 5 minutes by stirring with the handle of a sanitized spoon, or with a drill mounted stirring device. Insufficient stirring will prevent the wine from clearing adequately."

That should be enough degassing if done properly.

Yes, you should buy Potassium Metabisulfite, both for additions during bulk aging and for mixing a sanitizing solution for your equipment (3 tablespoons of K-meta per 1 gallon of water). The amount to add to wine for protection against spoilage is 1/4 teaspoon for 6 gallons of wine. A 1-pound bag of K-meta costs around $6.

After 6 months in bulk aging and proper degassing during the wine making process, you can safely add the vinyl toppers.

Personally, never had a "cork taste" when I was using either natural or agglomerated corks. I have switched to Nomacorcs, exclusively. If you still have the natural corks, you might try putting them in a colander and doing a light cold-water rinse. Could have been some cork dust on the ones you used.

Thanks again for the answer,

Yes I read about the degassing and went through with it with my first 2 batches following instruction. I now have 3 RJS in carboy but I never did degassed them because I read on this forum that you dont need to degas if you age the wine in carboy for 6 months, it will naturally degas itself.....am I wrong to think that? (I got that info from someone answering my many questions...) Hopefully not...it would be very bad to have lost 3 batches of RJS(Carmenere, Trio white and Meritage RED)....god that would put an end to my wine making "carreer".....

I have been using Starsan for years for sanitizing while brewing beer so I kept using it for wine..

Ok for nomacork, I have heard nothing but good things about them, I will start using them.

 

[cmason1957]

Thanks again for the answer,

Yes I read about the degassing and went through with it with my first 2 batches following instruction. I now have 3 RJS in carboy but I never did degassed them because I read on this forum that you dont need to degas if you age the wine in carboy for 6 months, it will naturally degas itself.....am I wrong to think that? (I got that info from someone answering my many questions...) Hopefully not...it would be very bad to have lost 3 batches of RJS(Carmenere, Trio white and Meritage RED)....god that would put an end to my wine making "carreer".....

I have been using Starsan for years for sanitizing while brewing beer so I kept using it for wine..

Ok for nomacork, I have heard nothing but good things about them, I will start using them.

The answer to is 6 months enough time is probably, it depends. Some wines just seem to hold onto that CO2 forever. I do two things to help make sure It's all gone, first, after fermentation is complete I put a three prong wine whip into my drill and use that, reversing direction every so often for about a minute, maybe two. This doesn't remove all the CO2, but it helps get the process started. Second, I rack using a vacuum pump, which removes any extra CO2 that wants to come out as I rack. Star san is a fine sanitizing agent. I use it for beer, also. If you plan to continue using it for wine, then buy less than the one pound of Potassium Metabisulphite to add, it "can" go bad over time, no clue how long that time is.

 

[winemaker81]

Yes it was Potassium Sorbate I was talking about, I had read the purpose was to stop fermentation but you are right...it is to prevent refermentation...my bad.

If this is the worst winemaking mistake you make, count your blessings! The internet makes it soo easy to share information! Unfortunately, that information does not need to be correct. The real value of a forum such as this one is you have dozens of experienced winemakers, so if someone posts something that is factually incorrect, it will be identified.

OTOH, there is more than 1 valid solution to most winemaking decisions, so you'll get multiple opinions regarding what to do.

I have read on this forum that I should not have to degas the wine if left in secondary for 6 months as it will naturally degas......what is your thought on that?

Most wines degas naturally in 6 months or so, and manual degassing is not necessary. However, I adopted the practice for all wines as with the bulk of the CO2 gone, the wine clears faster. Kit instructions for degassing are overkill IMO -- all that is necessary is to stir for a minute, changing direction half way through. This kickstarts the process and the wine continues to degas. I do this at the first post-fermentation racking.

Second question, you add K-meta before bottling. My kit(RJS) does not include more K-meta as they do not recommend leaving the wine for so long before bottling. So your advice is to buy extra K-meta and add it before bottling? How much should I add?

Yup -- kit instructions are for a 1 to 2 month process. I add 1/4 tsp K-meta per 5 or 6 gallons of wine at each racking, post-fermentation, and at bottling time. K-meta works by the free SO2 binds to contaminants, rendering them harmless, which uses up the free SO2.

You say "DO NOT apply any enclosures that prevent the cork from popping" but after 6 months in secondary, is this still valid or I can use the heat shrink PVC thingies?? Are these a good idea?

I tried to keep my answer simple to not overwhelm you with details, and I probably failed. My comment is in regard to the fizzy wine, where folks have wired down the cork to keep it from popping. This potentially produces a grenade, as if the pressure exceeds a weak point in the glass, it can explode. If the wine is dry, or backsweetened with stabilizer, it's perfectly safe. Shrink capsules will not prevent a cork from popping, AFAIK.

My comments regarding bottle pressure ratings is taken from bottle manufacturer sites.

Last 2 batch I used cork, the most expensive I could find(thinking quality would be better), one bottle of the +25 I have had tasted like cork which we could not drink....is this normal...acceptable loss or the synthetic option is better?

Zero bottles should smell or taste like cork. Did you use bleach in your winery? Bleach is a no-no, as it can cause cork taint.

Price does not necessarily equate to quality. I suggest buying corks from a reputable vendor, e.g., one that has a verified presence and is not just a store on Amazon.

I switched to Nomacorcs 4 years ago, as my cellar conditions are not ideal and I was getting mold on the outside of corks. Nomacorcs eliminate that problem.

 

[matsgone]

The answer to is 6 months enough time is probably, it depends. Some wines just seem to hold onto that CO2 forever. I do two things to help make sure It's all gone, first, after fermentation is complete I put a three prong wine whip into my drill and use that, reversing direction every so often for about a minute, maybe two. This doesn't remove all the CO2, but it helps get the process started. Second, I rack using a vacuum pump, which removes any extra CO2 that wants to come out as I rack. Star san is a fine sanitizing agent. I use it for beer, also. If you plan to continue using it for wine, then buy less than the one pound of Potassium Metabisulphite to add, it "can" go bad over time, no clue how long that time is.

Ok I am now concerned about NOT having degassed...I should have done what you do, whip it for a while also. I bought one of those degaser for the drill, same.

Now, to make sure I do not screw up, what vaccum pump would you recommend I buy?

 

[matsgone]

If this is the worst winemaking mistake you make, count your blessings! The internet makes it soo easy to share information! Unfortunately, that information does not need to be correct. The real value of a forum such as this one is you have dozens of experienced winemakers, so if someone posts something that is factually incorrect, it will be identified.

OTOH, there is more than 1 valid solution to most winemaking decisions, so you'll get multiple opinions regarding what to do.


Most wines degas naturally in 6 months or so, and manual degassing is not necessary. However, I adopted the practice for all wines as with the bulk of the CO2 gone, the wine clears faster. Kit instructions for degassing are overkill IMO -- all that is necessary is to stir for a minute, changing direction half way through. This kickstarts the process and the wine continues to degas. I do this at the first post-fermentation racking.


Yup -- kit instructions are for a 1 to 2 month process. I add 1/4 tsp K-meta per 5 or 6 gallons of wine at each racking, post-fermentation, and at bottling time. K-meta works by the free SO2 binds to contaminants, rendering them harmless, which uses up the free SO2.


I tried to keep my answer simple to not overwhelm you with details, and I probably failed. My comment is in regard to the fizzy wine, where folks have wired down the cork to keep it from popping. This potentially produces a grenade, as if the pressure exceeds a weak point in the glass, it can explode. If the wine is dry, or backsweetened with stabilizer, it's perfectly safe. Shrink capsules will not prevent a cork from popping, AFAIK.

My comments regarding bottle pressure ratings is taken from bottle manufacturer sites.


Zero bottles should smell or taste like cork. Did you use bleach in your winery? Bleach is a no-no, as it can cause cork taint.

Price does not necessarily equate to quality. I suggest buying corks from a reputable vendor, e.g., one that has a verified presence and is not just a store on Amazon.

I switched to Nomacorcs 4 years ago, as my cellar conditions are not ideal and I was getting mold on the outside of corks. Nomacorcs eliminate that problem.

Thanks a lot for taking the time, very valuable inputs!!!

 

[winemaker81]

Ok I am now concerned about NOT having degassed...I should have done what you do, whip it for a while also. I bought one of those degaser for the drill, same.

You can degas the wine at any time. With wine, time is your friend.

Note -- I'm cautious of using the word "whipping", as it's rarely necessary. I use a drill-mounted stirring rod and get the wine moving well, into a small vortex. If you have excess CO2 the wine will foam a bit, and if not, it won't. Making the wine foam is not the objective -- just stirring it up.

Now, to make sure I do not screw up, what vaccum pump would you recommend I buy?

I don't have one, but many folks use the All in One pump. The company owner (Steve) is a regular poster and folks rave about his customer support. You can search the forum to get his contact information.

 

[cmason1957]

Ok I am now concerned about NOT having degassed...I should have done what you do, whip it for a while also. I bought one of those degaser for the drill, same.

Now, to make sure I do not screw up, what vaccum pump would you recommend I buy?

My wife bought me the allinonewinepump (Wine Pump | All in One Wine Pump) that Bryan mentions probably the second or third year we were making wine. We are on about year 10 or 12 now. I probably would have stopped making wine, if I didn't own it. Lifting full carboys just isn't my idea of fun anymore, along with the benefits of removing the excess CO2. Not to mention the ability to filter without making a mess and bottle using it. It's just an all around good tool. And Steve is a great guy. Heck even if you decide not to buy one from him and put together your own set-up he will help answer your questions on what you need to make everything work.

 

[matsgone]

You can degas the wine at any time. With wine, time is your friend.

Note -- I'm cautious of using the word "whipping", as it's rarely necessary. I use a drill-mounted stirring rod and get the wine moving well, into a small vortex. If you have excess CO2 the wine will foam a bit, and if not, it won't. Making the wine foam is not the objective -- just stirring it up.


I don't have one, but many folks use the All in One pump. The company owner (Steve) is a regular poster and folks rave about his customer support. You can search the forum to get his contact information.

So degassing after 4 months in carboy is still ok? Arent we concerned about introducing O2 in the wine and oxydizing it?

I used the word whipping but stirring is more like it....being a beer homebrewer I am very very concerned about oxidizing beer so I hate this process of stirring...

I will try to find Steve on this forum..see if I can order one to Chinada.... Thank you very much once again!!

Cheers!!!

 

[winemaker81]

So degassing after 4 months in carboy is still ok? Arent we concerned about introducing O2 in the wine and oxydizing it?

Oxidation in wine is not a rapid process -- it's a factor of wine volume vs air exposure vs time. If you're stirring the wine vigorously for a minute and adding K-meta to handle O2, it's not a problem.

Most of what you know about beer making does not exactly correspond to winemaking -- I'm also a brewer, so I'm aware of the differences.

 

[matsgone]

Damn just to let you guys know...Steve from All in one pump called me within 30 min of me emailing him....haha....unreal.....I'm impressed..... Great guy!!! Thanks!

 

[Rocky]

Damn just to let you guys know...Steve from All in one pump called me within 30 min of me emailing him....haha....unreal.....I'm impressed..... Great guy!!! Thanks!

You are correct. Steve is tops, and so are his products. I just ordered the new bottling fixture.