traditional vs country,

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hounddawg

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I have learned a ton of valuable knowledge that I will always remember from @hounddawg , about wine making in general which I apply to anything I am making from peaches to a cabernet sauvignon..
thank you ,, I'm honored, I'm amazed by those on here that do things i have trouble even understanding,
Dawg
 

winemaker81

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I use a simple definition -- wine is any fermented, non-distilled, beverage that does not require an intermediate process such as conversion from starch to sugar, e.g., beer. [Except sake, which requires a conversion using kōji, but the result is closer to wine than beer]

Within "wine" we have subclasses, e.g., red (grape), white (grape), fruit (non-grape which includes vegetables), mead, and sake. It's all wine. If someone doesn't like that definition? I don't care. I won't waste time with a pointless discussion.

I don't care for the term "country wine". It feels demeaning to non-grape wines, whereas non-grape wines are a mainstay around the globe. Hence my list is red, white, fruit, mead, and sake.

@hounddawg, I'm rolling my eyes at you -- because you said grapes are beyond your ability. It's true only if you let it be true. As @Ajmassa said, the process does not have to be complicated. Scientific tests are a choice, not a necessity. You already have demonstrated you have the know-how to ferment anything.

If someone puts down fruit wines? A person can insult you only if you care about their opinion.
 

BernardSmith

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Not sure that I wholly agree with you, winemaker81. The term "country wine" has a very old and illustrious history. Demeaning? I don't think so. It's how everyday folk in northern Europe who had no access to grapes (too cold to grow) made wine. The aristocrats and the rich and powerful may have spent the workers' hard toil in acquiring expensive wines for their select and very private enjoyment but the real folk - those that worked with the sweat of their brow - made wonderful wines from the hedgerow and from fruit trees and from the vegetables and edible plants they grew. And if a berry harvest might last a few weeks their ability to transform that fruit into wine meant that the shelf life and the nutrition from that fruit was extended months and months. Demeaning? No. Honoring their lives, more like.
 

sour_grapes

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Within "wine" we have subclasses, e.g., red (grape), white (grape), fruit (non-grape which includes vegetables), mead, and sake. It's all wine. If someone doesn't like that definition? I don't care. I won't waste time with a pointless discussion.

I don't care for the term "country wine". It feels demeaning to non-grape wines, whereas non-grape wines are a mainstay around the globe. Hence my list is red, white, fruit, mead, and sake.
....

If someone puts down fruit wines? A person can insult you only if you care about their opinion.
I heartily concur with those statements.

@BernardSmith , I am not versed in the history of the term "country wine." (Not in the OED :( .) However, it seems unlikely to me that the people who made such wine gave it the moniker "country wine." Hence the feeling that the term is condescending. I think @winemaker81 was in agreement with your sentiments regarding the honorableness of making the drink of the gods from bounty of the land, whatever that happened to be.

EDITED TO ADD: But I am (honestly) open and eager to learning more about the history of the term "country wine." I was not able to find much from a quick googling, but would be happy to learn more.
 
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winemaker81

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one could argue that scraping cow intestines for yeast to be extremely complicated & impressive as well
Never done that, but I've made hog casings. Not really complicated, but it stinks. Cleaning out the intestines is worse than scraping. ;)

The term "country wine" has a very old and illustrious history.
I agree fully.

I've met folks with severe prejudices -- as a young adult in Upstate NY, it was common to disparage the NY wines as substandard or not even wine. Having lived in NC for 25+ years, I see this same attitude as it relates to the Muscadines. This sad as the wine industry in Upstate NY (mostly hybrids) and in NC (lot of Muscadine) produces a lot of really good wines, and generates a lot of revenue.

In that vein, I've experienced people who put down fruit wines as low brow, using the word "country" as a putdown. This applies to things other than wine, and it irritates me. No doubt this makes me sensitive to it, especially as the opinion is an uneducated one.
 

sour_grapes

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reeflections

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Words have different connotations in different regions just here in the U.S.. I have spent my life equally between California, Hawaii, and the Ozarks. Here in the Ozarks, or any rural areas I would presume, using the word "country" for anything is never condescending. Quite the opposite actually. It would be a selling point. If I was selling fruit wine around here, the words "Country Wine" would be prominently displayed on the label.

When my neighbor was helping me remove a tree that fell on my house a couple of years ago was asked if he would like some homemade jam, his reply was "I like anything that's country."
 

hounddawg

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Words have different connotations in different regions just here in the U.S.. I have spent my life equally between California, Hawaii, and the Ozarks. Here in the Ozarks, or any rural areas I would presume, using the word "country" for anything is never condescending. Quite the opposite actually. It would be a selling point. If I was selling fruit wine around here, the words "Country Wine" would be prominently displayed on the label.

When my neighbor was helping me remove a tree that fell on my house a couple of years ago was asked if he would like some homemade jam, his reply was "I like anything that's country."
you're smarter than you look all unshaved and that goofy leather hat, ;)
Dawg
 

hounddawg

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I use a simple definition -- wine is any fermented, non-distilled, beverage that does not require an intermediate process such as conversion from starch to sugar, e.g., beer. [Except sake, which requires a conversion using kōji, but the result is closer to wine than beer]

Within "wine" we have subclasses, e.g., red (grape), white (grape), fruit (non-grape which includes vegetables), mead, and sake. It's all wine. If someone doesn't like that definition? I don't care. I won't waste time with a pointless discussion.

I don't care for the term "country wine". It feels demeaning to non-grape wines, whereas non-grape wines are a mainstay around the globe. Hence my list is red, white, fruit, mead, and sake.

@hounddawg, I'm rolling my eyes at you -- because you said grapes are beyond your ability. It's true only if you let it be true. As @Ajmassa said, the process does not have to be complicated. Scientific tests are a choice, not a necessity. You already have demonstrated you have the know-how to ferment anything.

If someone puts down fruit wines? A person can insult you only if you care about their opinion.
woah, poor dumb country boy believes country is high praise,, ;) lol
Dawg
 

hounddawg

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Words have different connotations in different regions just here in the U.S.. I have spent my life equally between California, Hawaii, and the Ozarks. Here in the Ozarks, or any rural areas I would presume, using the word "country" for anything is never condescending. Quite the opposite actually. It would be a selling point. If I was selling fruit wine around here, the words "Country Wine" would be prominently displayed on the label.

When my neighbor was helping me remove a tree that fell on my house a couple of years ago was asked if he would like some homemade jam, his reply was "I like anything that's country."
you know the more i think about it, I've seen you some where, nope not the zoo, naw not on the other side of the hemisphere, shuck planet of the???? right on the tip of my tongue ,, can't quite place you, it'll come to me,, i got a memory like jelllo,,, nope nothing i reckon must of been wrong,
Dawg
 

winemaker81

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@Bernard, you might be surprised at the dislike and scorn some Vinifera drinkers had (at that time) for hybrid wines. Even today, the wine press rarely takes non-Vinifera seriously.

To be fair, the hybrids grown in NY don't taste like Vinifera, and some people can't get past that. Last year I purchased a few bottles of Chancellor from McGregor's, a Finger Lakes winery known mostly for their Russian and eastern European grapes, although they make a great Pinot Noir. My son had never tasted a hybrid, just Vinifera and Muscadine. When he first tasted the Chancellor, his eyes widened, as it was nothing he expected. However, he liked it and very cheerfully helped me finish the bottle. A lot of folks stop when it doesn't taste like Cabernet.

Concord can make a decent wine, although most are not. Manischewitz is far from being a good example.

One winemaker I knew marketed Marechal Foch in the spring -- it's a hybrid red that benefits from aging, and the surrounding wineries didn't put theirs on the market until it was a year old. These were small, new-start wineries, and they put wine on the market ASAP -- gotta pay those pesky bills!

Their secret to making it drinkable in 6 months? 5% Concord ...
 

winemanden

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I can't really see why people make a fuss over Country wines V Grape wines. After all, most vineyards - not all - are in the Countryside, So "real Wine 😀 " must therefore be a Country Wine.
All sorts of alcoholic brews were being made years before dictionaries were first printed.
 

Arne

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Here is the deal. Doesnt matter. You are making the wines for yourself and maybe for the pleasure of others. If you like the product doesn't matter what you call it. Nobody is telling you you have to make it this way or that. Folks here will try and help you improve what you are doing but in the end it is made how you want it to be made. Call it what you want only matters if you like it or not. Time to jump off the soapbox. LOL, Arne.
 

Ty520

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I've been thinking about this recently, and talking with a local vintner about introducing country wine to his repertoire - we both agree that there are plenty of country wines that are as good, if not better, than many grape wines. I think people who take a leap and venture into country wines at the commercial scale, and start treating them with the same respect, could be at the forefront of a very lucrative and venerable movement in the wine industry
 

BernardSmith

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I don't disagree but those who make grape wine demand incredible quality from the grape growers or else they grow the grapes themselves. Those who make country wines tend to be less demanding about the fruit they use, perhaps because those wine makers have never considered themselves like those who make wine from grapes. How much sugar is in the strawberries we use? The raspberries? The pomegranates? Peaches? How much flavor? How much is in the grapes?
 

hounddawg

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I've been thinking about this recently, and talking with a local vintner about introducing country wine to his repertoire - we both agree that there are plenty of country wines that are as good, if not better, than many grape wines. I think people who take a leap and venture into country wines at the commercial scale, and start treating them with the same respect, could be at the forefront of a very lucrative and venerable movement in the wine industry
you got me standing on the fence barking, sounds great to me....
Dawg
 

hounddawg

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I don't disagree but those who make grape wine demand incredible quality from the grape growers or else they grow the grapes themselves. Those who make country wines tend to be less demanding about the fruit they use, perhaps because those wine makers have never considered themselves like those who make wine from grapes. How much sugar is in the strawberries we use? The raspberries? The pomegranates? Peaches? How much flavor? How much is in the grapes?
IMHO, that is way off the mark ,, if not self centered to say the least, you supposed and answered guided by your own bias,,,, again IMHO
Dawg
 

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