Total submersion vs punch downs

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wood1954

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When making wine from grapes why not make a grate and submerge the cap instead of doing punch downs? Is it because oxygen needs to be mixed in? Tradition or something else? If one is trying for maximum extraction it seems to be a good idea, after all if you do three punch downs every day the cap is pretty dry most of the time.
 
When making wine from grapes why not make a grate and submerge the cap instead of doing punch downs? Is it because oxygen needs to be mixed in? Tradition or something else? If one is trying for maximum extraction it seems to be a good idea, after all if you do three punch downs every day the cap is pretty dry most of the time.

Interesting concept, can't wait to hear some of the comments.
 
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When my grandfather made sauerkraut he had a round wood board with a rock on it pushing down the kraut cap. I used to love grabbing a pinch or two of fermenting kraut.

many use a bag that helps keep must submerged. Interesting concept. I have a ferment going right now that has a 2 inch cap. Stirred it vigorously 3 times so far today. its something I enjoy because it shows me how hard the ferment is workin.
(my labor costs would Go down if I submerged the must I suppose) 🙄
 
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Super interesting idea. I’ve been playing with this idea for some time now with the thought of a contraption like a huge French coffee press. Partly for when I can’t punch down, partly because of the idea of contact like extended maceration. I’ve seen a few articles on it over time, I’ll have to find a picture I saved of a huge wooden lattice cap press.

Sounds like an experiment waiting to happen….
 
I've been using an old tupperware straining lid for my flower wines. The petals are so fragile and light that they float at the mention of CO2. What's the difference between a tupperware straining lid and a mesh bag? I don't know.
 
It all depends on the style of wine you wish to make. Early on in the fermentation the anthocyanin is extracted, providing color. Later, as the ethanol builds, more tannins are extracted, providing structure and longevity for aging. Submerging the cap and adding lysozyme will accelerate both processes, resulting in an earlier racking. So if one is trying to make a Beaujolais-style wine to be drunk early and appreciated in hot climes (like Texas), submerging the cap is not recommended. If your goal is to make a full-bodied wine for aging, quickly; then that would work. A final advantage of punching down is that it releases CO2, which in high concentration can affect fermentation and create a reducing environment.
 
@VinesnBines the link is a good look at submerged cap.
It won’t give you any benefits you really should do standard punch downs or pump overs
* As a food plant person we are always looking for methods which cut the cost of goods. From a practical point the first benefit of a hold down frame is reduced labor. A next advantage is that as one scales up volumes it works, hand punching a large tank doesn’t work to remove dry spots. Keeping the cap constantly below liquid level will reduce the level mold and bacteria contamination. The pumping technique did not exist before 1910 and became common in the 1930s with electricity,, pumping really is a modern technique which allowed increasing tank size. Last note, ,, Anyone who has dealt with OSHA (had a laborer get suffocate in a tank) will appreciate that on large tanks punching by hand isn’t safe.

* the main negative to a hold down frame that I see is mixing would get rid of high flavor spots, with small tanks any technique as mixing with your hand/ stainless punch down tool will create more efficient extraction of solids off of the skins. Nylon bags with weights will also decrease the extraction efficiency. Pumping leads to channels where the wine flows which are well extracted and other areas with lower extraction.
 
good replies thank you all. After posting I did some research and found some high end wineries in Europe do this to help keep down acetic acid and get better extraction. i helped a friend of a friend a few years ago who was making a 30 gallon concord wine for the first time and didn’t know to do a punch down, his cap smelled like vinegar and I thought he had lost the whole batch. So I’m going to try this method, submerging the cap and stirring the must once a day.
 
From my experience (20 years --- trivial in the 5000 year old wine making tradition) is that punching down release gases that if not released can later create off flavors. The more the punch down, the better is my wine.

All IMHO (In My Humble Opinion) only of course. But simply wish to point out there is a lot of interactions (some good, some bad) to punching down than one may expect. So if doubt.... Experiment. I constantly experiment. I expect after maybe 150 years I may reach the ideal..... :cool:

All I can say, again all IMHO, do not be lazy in wine making. The more work you put in, the better your wine may be.

Hope this helps.
 
From my experience (20 years --- trivial in the 5000 year old wine making tradition) is that punching down release gases that if not released can later create off flavors. The more the punch down, the better is my wine.

All I can say, again all IMHO, do not be lazy in wine making. The more work you put in, the better your wine may be.

I agree. There are more benefits to punch downs than you might think and I think the added O2 at this stage makes for a healthy alcoholic fermentation. With white wine its a tougher call, but I still stir those a couple of times per day as well. If I had proper equipment, I'd try a pump over routine, but lacking that, the punch down accomplishes the same goal.
 
@VinesnBines the link is a good look at submerged cap.

* As a food plant person we are always looking for methods which cut the cost of goods. From a practical point the first benefit of a hold down frame is reduced labor. A next advantage is that as one scales up volumes it works, hand punching a large tank doesn’t work to remove dry spots. Keeping the cap constantly below liquid level will reduce the level mold and bacteria contamination. The pumping technique did not exist before 1910 and became common in the 1930s with electricity,, pumping really is a modern technique which allowed increasing tank size. Last note, ,, Anyone who has dealt with OSHA (had a laborer get suffocate in a tank) will appreciate that on large tanks punching by hand isn’t safe.

* the main negative to a hold down frame that I see is mixing would get rid of high flavor spots, with small tanks any technique as mixing with your hand/ stainless punch down tool will create more efficient extraction of solids off of the skins. Nylon bags with weights will also decrease the extraction efficiency. Pumping leads to channels where the wine flows which are well extracted and other areas with lower extraction.
At wineries we have a punch down tool that is basically a industrial form of a punch down tool it is hydraulic but hand operated in that you move into place and then push a lever and it will punch down the cap and that’s how it’s done at commercial wineries or it’s pumped over.

I did hear a story from my old boss of a guy who fell into a tank of wine drowned and nobody knew untill they pumped the tanks out like 3-4 months later since you mentioned people falling into tanks.
 
From my experience (20 years --- trivial in the 5000 year old wine making tradition) is that punching down release gases that if not released can later create off flavors. The more the punch down, the better is my wine.

All IMHO (In My Humble Opinion) only of course. But simply wish to point out there is a lot of interactions (some good, some bad) to punching down than one may expect. So if doubt.... Experiment. I constantly experiment. I expect after maybe 150 years I may reach the ideal..... :cool:

All I can say, again all IMHO, do not be lazy in wine making. The more work you put in, the better your wine may be.

Hope this helps.
Maybe your wine is better the more you punch it down because you’re keeping it wetter and the yeast is more able to their work. I think submerged with daily stirring will work, also I use Renaissance yeast which makes for very clean fermentatio, like you I like to experiment. I’ll do half my crop submerged and half traditional
 
Maybe your wine is better the more you punch it down because you’re keeping it wetter and the yeast is more able to their work. I think submerged with daily stirring will work, also I use Renaissance yeast which makes for very clean fermentatio, like you I like to experiment. I’ll do half my crop submerged and half traditional
What I do when I make wine is punch down with a hand too or sometimes I’ll pump some of the wine over depending on if I think it will benefit the wine I like to do 3 punch downs a day keep the cap wet and make sure nothing grows on it. Everything else is pretty much as it’s done in a commercial winery I’ve found scaling commercial practices down to a home scale helps me to produce a lot better wine.
 
It won’t give you any benefits you really should do standard punch downs or pump overs and that’s it.
I have to agree with a manual punch-down. Just the movement of the cap is similar to a tea bag steeping. Sure, you can let it sit and and seep out into its surrounding liquid but floating up and draining (like the tea bag being removed) then punching down (like the tea flowing back into the bag) would seem to get the best extraction.
 
I have to agree with a manual punch-down. Just the movement of the cap is similar to a tea bag steeping. Sure, you can let it sit and and seep out into its surrounding liquid but floating up and draining (like the tea bag being removed) then punching down (like the tea flowing back into the bag) would seem to get the best extraction.
Yes also alcohol is a good solvent it will extract a lot if you punch down the cap
 
Not sure, but I think I read somewhere of a device a bit like a coffee percolator with the base submerged in the must. A tube poked above the cap and the action of the ferment bubbled the must out of the top above the cap.
I don't know,at my age I sometimes get memories and dreams confused. :slp 😃
 
gas? off flavor? mercaptans? ? ? > > CO2
From my experience (20 years --- trivial in the 5000 year old wine making tradition) is that punching down release gases that if not released can later create off flavors. The more the punch down, the better is my wine.
You have me wondering if part of the benefit to mixing the cap vs a hold down plate is nitrogen extraction from the skins which makes yeast nutrition traditionally good on reds versus fair on whites.

Humm?
 
You really need to mix. Channeling is the problem.

i use a sand gravel filtration system on my koi pond, and over time the water running through it forms “channels“ instead of the water running throughout the whole bed. Less efficient at removing dirt. So it gets stirred (air blower wash)

I’m sure the same applies to the yeast being able to get at the whole cap of must. The more stirring, the more area that gets eaten up.
 

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