to each their own,,,,
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zelix
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We don’t need any numbers to make wine. It is a traditional product, , wine existed before we were literate, before we imported Arabic numerals.
The numbers are there for consistency batch to batch and day to day. The numbers let the plant manager hire someone fresh out of high school and permits them to make product consistent with ten years ago. A formula also lets a PC monitor the operation and eliminate the job of the expert with 20 seasons of experience. @zelix you can use the numbers that apply to grape, to reduce the learning curve with country wine.
Wine is hedonic, , , for enjoyment. I laugh since 2019 butternut squash/ cranberry wine, made by the numbers, ,isn’t very good 9 months out.
The numbers are there for consistency batch to batch and day to day. The numbers let the plant manager hire someone fresh out of high school and permits them to make product consistent with ten years ago. A formula also lets a PC monitor the operation and eliminate the job of the expert with 20 seasons of experience. @zelix you can use the numbers that apply to grape, to reduce the learning curve with country wine.
Wine is hedonic, , , for enjoyment. I laugh since 2019 butternut squash/ cranberry wine, made by the numbers, ,isn’t very good 9 months out.
joeswine
joeswine
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I think there is a time and place for numbers and a time and a place for common sense.
Wine making from day one was a blend of both we weren't there so we really don't know for sure,do we?
Today's wine making is definitely a combination of both and of you don't think so ,well what can I say, as subjective as this craft is , numbers play a part Just as ,juice,fruits and water if you don't believe that's then you haven't read to many of these threads and the thousands of the same questions that are asked ,how ,when,why,amount ,does this effect and so forth.
Numbers do count as well as hands on experience.
It all depends on what your using in place of numbers as we know them ( today).
Wine making from day one was a blend of both we weren't there so we really don't know for sure,do we?
Today's wine making is definitely a combination of both and of you don't think so ,well what can I say, as subjective as this craft is , numbers play a part Just as ,juice,fruits and water if you don't believe that's then you haven't read to many of these threads and the thousands of the same questions that are asked ,how ,when,why,amount ,does this effect and so forth.
Numbers do count as well as hands on experience.
It all depends on what your using in place of numbers as we know them ( today).
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never said they don't
so you figure that greeks and romans were figuring parts per millions?
yes numbers count, espespecialy to copy a wine, of course not even that is the all being, or else one vintage year would not be worth more than another vintage year? in just what way do i not think so well?
good wine is a art, but to make what's on the shelf i figure you do need parts per millions, just my opinion,, why does that upset you so,? i never knocked on those that wish to use complicated math/arithmetic to make wine, as the title says it all, TO EACH THEIR OWN,, i enjoy the old timers from the deep woods ways, as you enjoy your way, again as the title says . to each their own, i stated up front , not here to make a fuss, just state'd my observations from a few years on here, you suit yourself as i do suit myself,,, so why do you take such offence,,, oh well i reckon that now i can ponder why you are so upset,
Dawg
i know you are very passionate about being very accurate so your wine is one way or another, and i know for a fact your wines are very good, all i said was you enjoy your way and i enjoy my ways, i never meant to offend no one at all,
Dawg
nothing more.akron
Member
Math, numbers, quantities are all part of the ”recipe” to me that is needed to get going with a batch I want to re-create. But much of the outcome is the process and techniques after the recipe is implemented. In fact it seems like the biggest part is in the technique.
most of my country wine recipes are from 1825 to 1845, some figuring dose help, but old time math was a dab, a pinch, a handful a peck,, so on so forth, as i like to recreate the ole country folk ways, there's many ways. and to each their own, all my tannings come from crab apples, and several more odd ingredients, but i have no clue about grapes if i did it would be a resaleing . or any other dessert wine...
Dawg
MustyMike
Member
There’s more than one way to skin this cat lol my 2 cents are if you know winemaking you can more or less make your own recipe that works. All of the math and exact measurements come into play when you are making someone else’s wine ie: a kit. Someone had to make that kit first and say this is what needs to be added to make what I think is a good wine. Are there certain measurements that can be agreed upon throughout any wine? Yes. Such as the amount of k-meta to add per gallon for preserving. However, a lot of it adds up to our individual tastes. I won’t speak for anyone, but I feel if you are a home brewer then don’t expect to make the same exact wine year after year if you are fermenting your own fruit. Commercial wines can be consistent because they are made in bulk and can be adjusted for very specific deficiencies. As a home brewer you can trust that it’s good wine because I said it was, as I crushed it, fermented it, and watched it’s progress throughout. It doesn’t really matter what fruit you use to me, wine is wine, and if it’s good it is good. To each their own 
joeswine
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I'm not going to disagree with you,BUT, if you have had a chance to follow any of my threads you'll see that in a experimenter, and that standard rules were meant to be bent not broken.
Well before kit wines came along major manufacturers of wines around the world had process standards ,that's not to say home wine makers didn't it just was their own.
Ex. When Italian imergrant came to this country they brewed wine in tubs,that's it tubes, and in the tenaments were they lived people would come with pots an purchase wine.
And when they were asked " when was this made ? The wine maker would reply " A DAY A GO" no sicence just what they were tough , " by the way I'm Italian", my grandfather made it by the barrels ,one was this year's and the other was done the year before, no maybe just process, inherited thought , JohnT had a great family story if he would chime in and it explains the same, they in the past did it and it can be a combination of math "which the Romans and Greek's were using by the way, or straight up inherited skills .
To the More process minded wine maker it's a combination of both and for others it's inherited skills or trial and errors, which ever ,To Each His Or Her Own. Moving on.
Well before kit wines came along major manufacturers of wines around the world had process standards ,that's not to say home wine makers didn't it just was their own.
Ex. When Italian imergrant came to this country they brewed wine in tubs,that's it tubes, and in the tenaments were they lived people would come with pots an purchase wine.
And when they were asked " when was this made ? The wine maker would reply " A DAY A GO" no sicence just what they were tough , " by the way I'm Italian", my grandfather made it by the barrels ,one was this year's and the other was done the year before, no maybe just process, inherited thought , JohnT had a great family story if he would chime in and it explains the same, they in the past did it and it can be a combination of math "which the Romans and Greek's were using by the way, or straight up inherited skills .
To the More process minded wine maker it's a combination of both and for others it's inherited skills or trial and errors, which ever ,To Each His Or Her Own. Moving on.
not to mention how come with commercial wines is one vintage is more valuable than other years proving that even no matter how to make each year, well,,, mother earth decides how the cow ate the cabbage,,,,There’s more than one way to skin this cat lol my 2 cents are if you know winemaking you can more or less make your own recipe that works. All of the math and exact measurements come into play when you are making someone else’s wine ie: a kit. Someone had to make that kit first and say this is what needs to be added to make what I think is a good wine. Are there certain measurements that can be agreed upon throughout any wine? Yes. Such as the amount of k-meta to add per gallon for preserving. However, a lot of it adds up to our individual tastes. I won’t speak for anyone, but I feel if you are a home brewer then don’t expect to make the same exact wine year after year if you are fermenting your own fruit. Commercial wines can be consistent because they are made in bulk and can be adjusted for very specific deficiencies. As a home brewer you can trust that it’s good wine because I said it was, as I crushed it, fermented it, and watched it’s progress throughout. It doesn’t really matter what fruit you use to me, wine is wine, and if it’s good it is good. To each their own
Dawg
reeflections
Senior Member
As a photographer, new to wine making, I see a parallel between the two crafts. They are both a combination of science and art. One has to learn a bit of each to reach your goals. On photography forums I used to follow, there were some that could give you mathematical formulas of lens curves and focal distances but were unable to make a pleasing image because they never saw the art side of the spectrum. Then there were those that had great ideas, but they couldn't transfer their ideas to a pleasing image because they didn't understand the science of light.
I'm beginning to believe this is similar with wine making. Instead of physics, wine making uses more chemistry, but the principles are the same. You start with learning the fundamental science, then learn the fundamental goals (your art). Later, you can further your craft by expanding on your art goals and learning the necessary science to achieve them. Or, you can study more of the science and let that expand your art. I prefer the former, while others might prefer the latter. Both are valid to be sure.
One major difference, on forums anyway, is that photographers can share our final product with each other online. Most of us will never be able to taste each other's wine.
I'm beginning to believe this is similar with wine making. Instead of physics, wine making uses more chemistry, but the principles are the same. You start with learning the fundamental science, then learn the fundamental goals (your art). Later, you can further your craft by expanding on your art goals and learning the necessary science to achieve them. Or, you can study more of the science and let that expand your art. I prefer the former, while others might prefer the latter. Both are valid to be sure.
One major difference, on forums anyway, is that photographers can share our final product with each other online. Most of us will never be able to taste each other's wine.
no i mail wines and i receive wine by mail, just 2 weeks ago i received a very good bottle of cranberry and a killer bottle of blackberry,, i have sent or received many bottles both way, and you are spot on, all wines take simple math, to make your style yet others use very complicated formulas,
i plainly started by saying all ways are right, it depends on what one wants,
Dawg,,,
reeflections
Senior Member
That's cool! I had no idea. But still not quite as easy as posting a pic for everyone.
Totally agree with you that all ways are right. After all, it's a personal craft.
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Since nobody else mentioned this, please be aware that in the US, it is illegal to send alcohol via the mail system. It might or might not be illegal to send marinade. UPS and/or FedEx are somewhat better choices, but Your Mileage May Vary. Just be careful out there.
fudge that i ha no luse about thank you cmason1957
DAWG
AH PS I WAS JOKING ABOUT SENDING SENDING ANY THING, WHEW,, LOL,
@reeflections, your idea has a lot of merit, although I did it the opposite. I found a recipe for rhubarb wine in the local newspaper and started with the art, then later moved to hard science, and gravitated towards the middle ground. I orbit that center, and my opinions vary a bit as I learn new things. Years ago I imagine people started on the art side, but with the internet and availability of information, I suspect many are starting on the science side.
As @MustyMike said above, large vendors have the resources to blend and tweak to make consistent batches from year to year. If you're a plonk vendor (I'm not British, but that word sounds right) making non-vintage wine, you have a vested interest in consistency. If you're Chateau Petrus, you have a vested interest in making the best wine you can from that year's harvest.
I'm on the Petrus side, philosophically speaking. I'm strive to make the best wine I can from what I have. Sure, I'd like next year's wine to be like a favored batch from the past, but I don't honestly worry about it. All I can do is my best. Mother Nature handles the rest.
IMO the science side is risk management. I control the factors that I consider important so the yeast can do its thing.
As @MustyMike said above, large vendors have the resources to blend and tweak to make consistent batches from year to year. If you're a plonk vendor (I'm not British, but that word sounds right) making non-vintage wine, you have a vested interest in consistency. If you're Chateau Petrus, you have a vested interest in making the best wine you can from that year's harvest.
I'm on the Petrus side, philosophically speaking. I'm strive to make the best wine I can from what I have. Sure, I'd like next year's wine to be like a favored batch from the past, but I don't honestly worry about it. All I can do is my best. Mother Nature handles the rest.
IMO the science side is risk management. I control the factors that I consider important so the yeast can do its thing.
