Tannins - Know when and why to add them.

Discussion in 'Yeast, Additives & Wine Making Science' started by Pumpkinman, Nov 20, 2013.

  1. TomK-B

    TomK-B Senior Member

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    Well, I guess 'mid-Atlantic' is a better description than 'Titanic.' :)
     
  2. Paolo_pin

    Paolo_pin Junior Member

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    i dare to complete Pumpkinman valuable infos with my own experience. i hope he will be agree with me and that they can be useful for anyone.
     

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  3. manvsvine

    manvsvine Banned

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    Scott Labs fermentation handbook is a good source of information on all kinds of wine products .

    http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/ScottLabsHandbook2013.pdf

    this is their FAQ on the tannins they carry

    "When is the best time to add tannins ? How do I add them ?
    Tannins are best added early in the winemaking process. In red wine,
    an addition during the fermentation stage integrates tannin into
    the wine and offers the greatest opportunity for color stability and
    increased mid-palate structure. They can be added at the crusher
    or to the tank during the first pump-over, depending on the grape
    quality (rotten vs. sound). Additional tannin can be added with each
    pump-over. If adding to a white wine, add directly to the grapes at
    the crusher or to the tank during a tank mixing.

    I am using tannin and enzymes . Will SO2 interfere with my
    additions ?

    Using all three products together is fine, but timing is important!
    High SO2 content can inhibit enzyme activity. Do not add SO2 and
    enzymes at the same time. It is okay to add enzymes after the SO2
    is adequately dispersed OR to add SO2 after the enzymes are adequately
    dispersed. Follow with a tannin addition six to eight hours
    later. When enzymes are not being used, add SO2 first, allow to
    disperse, then follow with the tannin addition.

    Can I use tannins on white juice and wine ?
    Yes, a tannin addition in white juice may be beneficial to remove
    off-aromas, to improve clarification, to inhibit laccase activity from
    Botrytis or rot, or to serve as an anti-oxidant. We recommend using
    either Uva’Tan, Uva’Tan Soft, FT Blanc or FT Blanc Soft. Tannins
    can also be added later to wine to improve mid-palate structure
    or softness.

    Why should I use tannins on my “premium ” red grapes ?
    Tannins can be used to protect the color and phenolic structure of
    your wines. For the easiest and most efficient integration of tannins,
    add FT Rouge or FT Rouge Soft at the crusher. If needed, an addition
    of Uva’Tan, Uva’Tan Soft or Estate prior to aging can help reinforce
    phenolic balance. During long maturation in barrels, Estate will help
    prevent excessive oxidation that can result in loss of structure and
    freshness. For improved SO2 management add small amounts of
    Estate (5-7.5 g/hL) during each racking.

    Will tannin additions increase color in low -color grape varieties ?
    Tannins do not add color to the must of low color grapes. Recent
    research indicates that early addition of tannins such as FT Rouge
    allows them to bind up available proteins. This preserves the grapes'
    own natural tannins, making them available to bind with the grapes’
    anthocyanins and thereby provides increased color stability.


    Why not add oak chips ? Aren ’t they a source of accessible tannin ?
    Oak chips are a source of ellagic (wood) tannin. The level of tannin
    available will differ depending upon the wood source and the treatment
    regime. When using oak based products, macromolecules
    (lignin, cellulose, hemicellulose, etc.) other than oak will be extracted.
    The oak based addition may help mask flavors, provide some oxidative
    protection and leave an oak finish, but they will NOT improve
    mid-palate structure. By contrast, the combination of wood and proanthocyanidic
    tannins in FT Rouge or FT Rouge Soft will help improve
    structure and color stability.

    What if I did not add enough tannin during the primary
    fermentation ?

    If more tannin structure and flavor is desired post-fermentation,
    make additions with Complex or Estate. Addition is best before barrel
    aging when tannins can be incorporated into the wine and when
    oxidation and polymerization are slow. Refresh, Riche and Riche
    Extra are the best tannins to use prior to bottling (3-6 weeks) when
    a bit of oak influence is desired. Any of these tannins can be used
    throughout winemaking, depending on the desired effect. Bench
    trials are required to determine the best tannin for a particular wine
    or style.

    Will adding tannins inhibit barrel aging ?
    Tannins protect wine from oxidation during barrel aging. The wood
    tannins extracted from a new barrel protect the wine from over-oxidation
    during the slow process needed for tannin polymerization and
    wine development. When using old barrels, indigenous tannin may
    have been completely leached out. A small tannin addition of 5-10 g/hL
    will act as an anti-oxidant and help protect the wine. Attaining a good
    phenolic profile will slow the maturation process and still protect
    the wine.

    Can tannins help remove undesirable astringency or bitterness ?

    Yes. Over-astringency is caused by an imbalance of tannin molecules
    or by insufficiently bound tannin complexes. By adding a more
    refined, highly polymerized tannin to the wine, the imbalance can be
    corrected and the perception of astringency or bitterness reduced.
    This frequently improves the perception of fruit.

    What if I only want to use pure grape tannin in my wine ?

    Uva’Tan (tannins from grape skins and seeds) and Uva’Tan Soft
    (tannins from grape skins only) are comprised of 100% grape tannin.
    All other tannins are sourced from a combination of grapes,
    exotic woods, oak or chestnut."
     
  4. Jimyson

    Jimyson Junior Member

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    This, my friends, was an excellent read. Hats off to the two main contributors for sticking in and digging deeper. For newbies like me, it's greatly appreciated.
     
  5. applelover12

    applelover12 Member

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    how much tannin to add?

     
  6. Paolo_pin

    Paolo_pin Junior Member

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    In order to choose the right tannin, i apply a very simple procedure:
    1. prepare a solution 25-30% in alcohol and distillated water
    2. dissolve your tannin in ratio 10 g/l
    3. the solution can be used dosing 0,1 cc in 100 cc glass wine
    4. every dose (0,1 or more) is approx 1 g/hl of tannin in wine

    I recommend this solution to use fining tannins and you will get suprised as many times some tannins will get your wine worst. Obviously, it will be very easy to combine different tannins as well. This method can do very fine guessing in winemaking quality improvement.

    Paolo Pineschi
    italian winemaker
     
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  7. BigSell

    BigSell Member

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    A little different question, would someone confirm or correct my assumption that finishing Tannins should be added prior to filtering. Seems like they need 3-6 weeks aging, then filter, then bottle?
     
  8. Deezil

    Deezil Moderator Super Moderator

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    It can depend on the type of tannin, but that's a good way to go about it, yes;

    Add tannins
    Wait 6 weeks
    Filter
    Bottle
     
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  9. Paolo_pin

    Paolo_pin Junior Member

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    I agree with Manley, it depends by tannins. Some tannins are removed by early filtration and thus need some time to react with colloidal fractions and to become more stable in solution. I normally don't wait 6 weeks for a filtration but normally 5-6 days are enough in a large amount of situations. Some wines and some tannins need more time for sure (young red wines, high reactive short chain seed tannins...). White wines are very dangerous if they are not precisely stabilized against proteins. Clouds are very easy in this case and can happen quickly after bottlement. My suggestion is to wait at least 7-10 days to let any kind of reaction in the container before filtration. Eventualy, any kind of preliminary test is also very advised.
     
  10. Wineaviator

    Wineaviator Junior

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    Where to buy tannins

    This is an extremely useful thread to a newbie wine (kit) maker. I have read the entire thread but have found little information with standard search engines on where exactly to purchase Scott Labs products (or any othe tannin for that matter) is there a website that offers plenty of these that anyone can recommend? Or are we limited to wha the LHBS has on hand.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  11. sour_grapes

    sour_grapes Victim of the Invasion of the Avatar Snatchers

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  12. BigSell

    BigSell Member

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    What is the best way/process to add tannins, I seem to find mine left on the bottom of the carboy when I rack. Do you dilute them in Wine, Water, Vodka or something else? What is the best process?
     
  13. heatherd

    heatherd Supporting Members Supporting Member

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    No dilution. I just drop them in and stir gently. Note that tannins added while the yeast is active have caused wine volcanos for me a couple of times. I do them once the wine is stabilized and during bulk aging.
     
  14. Julie

    Julie Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    I add after fermentation, it really helps in the mouthfeel. I will add prior to fermentation if I am making a wine out of something that is low in tannins and will after as well.
     
  15. Vinodawg

    Vinodawg Junior

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    Great info. Question - what type of Tannin is LD Carlson Liquid Wine Tannin (e.g. sacrificial, cellaring or finishing)?
     
  16. Rtrent2002

    Rtrent2002 Member

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    Just want to say thanks to everyone who posts their personal experiences and expertise here. I'm on my 7th kit now and can really tell a difference from my first kit to the one I just bottled using ideas and techniques from the "professionals"

    On my last kit, I added tannins in the bulk aging process (very little) and within a week I had much better nose and mouthfeel. (I'm sitting here with a glass now left over from bottling and I can't stop smelling the glass)

    I also added both a light toast powder and dark toast chips during bulk aging to develop a more complex flavor profile and you can actually taste/smell slight hints of coconut and vanilla from the powder and richer cocoa and tobacco from the dark roast chips.

    I also pitched a more quality yeast on day one and then pitched the provided EC 1118 on day 3 to ensure a completely dry wine. I was surprised at how fruit forward the right yeast provided.

    Happy camper here. I was almost ready to give up on kits.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
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  17. facn1989

    facn1989 Member

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    Data overload :( I am a new winemaker and only have made kits. I have limited space so I bottle as instructed by the kit manual (usually about 6 weeks from pitching yeast until bottling). For that reason I follow the instructions to the T and add all sorbate and clarifiers.

    I would like to add more body to my wines (take into account I make high end kit, which should be better than the cheap kits).

    There's too much info here and now I'm confused. Considering I bottle early, what's the best tannin I can use for reds, when should I add it, and how much?

    I already read that generic tannins are mostly useless and don't mind paying more for high quality tannins. Just not sure how much benefit I can get if I don't bulk age.

    Thanks!
     
  18. sour_grapes

    sour_grapes Victim of the Invasion of the Avatar Snatchers

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    You'll still get all the benefits if you bottle age. (It is possible you will get some sediment, but I don't think the wine will turn out appreciably differently.)

    Personally, I use ~7 or 8 g of FT Tannin Rouge in primary for 6 gallon kits, and 2 to 4 g of Tannin Riche Extra in secondary. (I think one or both of these tannins have new names now, but you should be able to easily cross reference them.)
     

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