tankless water heater for winery

Discussion in 'Wine Cellar & Storage Forum' started by olusteebus, Oct 29, 2017.

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  1. Oct 30, 2017 #21

    Smok1

    Smok1

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    Not sure if the wholesalers are the same canada to usa but:

    Emco: bradford white
    Ba robinson: rheem
    Sinclair or andrew sherets: john wood
     
  2. Oct 30, 2017 #22

    sour_grapes

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    Did you mean you put a recirc pump on a tankless heater? How would that even work?

    I can tell you I have saved plenty of money with mine during its 12 years and counting of trouble-free, maintenance-free operation. I suppose they're not for everyone, but they work well for us.
     
  3. Oct 30, 2017 #23

    Smok1

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    Hot water on demand in larger houses are a big issue when the unit is mounted in the basement and the there a bathroom on the third floor, we always install recirc lines in the houses, the times we havent we have 100% of the time got complaints that it takes forever to get hot water to the furthest fixtures, we are on water meters here and paying to run cold water for 60 seconds to get hot water is a big deal for most people.

    Without a hot water tank or at least a holding tank the water cant radiate heat down the line, hot water on demand leaves the water lines cold ecspecially with the new houses that all use pex, insulating all the water lines is one way to combat it but thats nearly impossible in an old house. So recirc pumps keeps hot water in the lines all the time, but theres a efficeincy loss associated with it as well, all the mechanical companies here were installing hot water on demand for years but in the last 5 years i bet 95% of new construction has gone back to the standard hot water tanks due to waranty issues and customer complaints and break downs with the tankless water heater.

    Heres on scenario: customer calls: no hot water, worst case scenario with a water tank maybe a $100 gas valve or a $10 thermocouple that any wholesaler carries in stock, youll have hot water in a couple hours

    Scenario 2: a navian or rannia instant hot water on demand goes down, probly 2 hours to trouble shoot the thing, try flushing heat exchanger, may e needs a gas valve, gas valve probly in the ball park of $500 give or take, nobody has any in stock because there one of a kind unit specific, so ill order one, hopefully be here in 2 days, air frieght right from navian or rannia, $1000 later and 3 days without hot water you should be good to go until the flow switch seizes up, now we have to tear it down again.

    Ive delt with these things for years, maybe im bias because i only get the service calls for broken ones, nobody calls me to tell me they love there unit. But i do know i get way more service calls for instant hot water over conventional water tanks and the repair bills are 5 times what a conventional water tank repair would be.
    In my experience, and i have a fair bit, ive been working for mechanical hvac companies for 20 years, i can easily name 5 good reasons not to buy a hot water on demand system, only reason i can think of to buy one would be space, not enough space for a water tank.

    61A32466-E538-47CD-8D57-D7E6300B5618.png
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
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  4. Oct 30, 2017 #24

    Smok1

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    One more thing about the money savings your getting using a tankless water heater is you can find with a quick google search online that the average savings on natiral gas is about $108 a year.

    Weve done some math of our own using firing rates and found it actually less than that unless you use a ton of hot water ( basically a family of 6) even if i did save $100 a year the upfront average installed cost of the hot water on demand is between 2500-3400$ and up to $5000 if you want a recirc put in. A conventional water tank 40g is $800. Thats alot of years you need to have that tankless water heater to pay it off, basically a minimum of 20 years to see payback on that and possobly up to 30 years which garanteed after 30 years you will be doing a few expensive repairs on it, one break down on the motherboard or gas valve and make it 40 years of owning it before you see any payback id just rather buy a brand new 40g every 10 years with up to date brand new parts, new liner, and id still be spending less than the guy who now owns a 30 year old tankless water heater with now obsolite parts.

    But this is just my experience like i said, im sure lots of people like them, just not worth the money or hassle in my opinion
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  5. Oct 30, 2017 #25

    sour_grapes

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    I installed my own for $1200. As I mentioned on that other post, I was able to place it in a location much closer to my hot water runs (instead of over where the flue was). My payoff period, based on my measured water usage, was about 7 years. (That was the time required to save $1200. That does not even take into account the amount I would have spent on a conventional heater.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  6. Oct 30, 2017 #26

    Smok1

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    Thats great, like i said for some people there great, you must use a whole lot of hot water to save 1200$ in 7 years, and like i said people who use a ton of hot water might benefit from the tankless, like i said, family of 6 or more, most people dont use that amount, national average is 41 gal per day which works out to a $108 per year savings, and thats calculated with a new 96% effecient unit, not sure which model you got but the new Navians start at about $2800 not installed, not including the special venting system, not many people can install them on there own, you need special venting, a larger gas regulator, the 1/2” gas pipe is most likely not big enough and youll either need to upsize the gas pipe or run high pressure 2psi gas to the unit and install a new 7”-14” gas reg. In fact here your not even allowed to install them unless you are a certified gasfitter. You cant even buy one in canada without a gas ticket. And if you could find one you still need a permit to install a gas appliance.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  7. Oct 30, 2017 #27

    sour_grapes

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    No, not a big family, just the two of us. As I keep saying, a large factor in the savings was the ability to move the unit from one side of the house (where the flue was) to the other side of the house (at the base of the hot water runs). That being said, I acknowledge that estimating energy use and savings is difficult, and it is possible that my payback period was closer to the 11 years you estimate than the 7 years I estimated based on my situation.

    Yes, I had to install larger gas pipe. Yes, I had to install double-wall stainless venting. Yes, I did this work under permit, and it was inspected by my AHJ and a master plumber.
     
  8. Oct 30, 2017 #28

    Smok1

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    Well if you can get one for $1200 with a vent kit and your knowledgable enough to install it yourself and troubleshoot it if it has issues id say its a no brainer, buy the tankless. For the majority of the people out there id say taking on a tankless install would be a job you would definitly need knowledge regarding gas sizing, regulators, special vent, dealing with the carbonic acid condensate trap/drain if its over 90% effecient, whereas a conventional hot water tank almost anyone can install themselves. Its a like for like install. Our company couldnt get a tankless water heater at wholesale for $1200. Our lowest end unit is probly $2000 our cost.

    Anyone thinking of buying a tankless should read this article first, there not as effecient as many of the companies lead you to believe.

    http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/are-tankless-water-heaters-waste-money
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
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  9. Oct 30, 2017 #29

    olusteebus

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    I happen to have a low boy water heater (electric) that I will hook up. It will be outside and only on when I need it. I will insulate it and it should be fine here in North Florida.

    Thanks for all the help!
     
  10. Oct 30, 2017 #30

    GreginND

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    It's not sanitizing I'm worried about. It's cleaning. Warm/hot water works so much better for cleaning up destemmers and presses after being soaked with sugar syrup from the grapes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  11. Mar 9, 2019 #31

    leonoro

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    I want more ideas. Anyone help me ?:a1
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  12. Mar 10, 2019 #32

    Dennis Griffith

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    I use a Bosch 2.5 gallon electric point-of-use water heater. You can get bigger ones, but for one sink they work great. Easy to install and runs on 110V. Never ran out of water under normal use, but I do let the tap run sometimes to flush it a little as it doesn't get a lot of use during certain periods.
     
  13. Mar 10, 2019 #33

    sour_grapes

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    What exactly do you want help with, Leonoro? I am sure we would be happy to help if we knew what you were asking about.
     
  14. Mar 10, 2019 #34

    joeswine

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    Bradford is a eastern product as a rule , Rheem or ao Smith is another good brand standard warranty on all 3 ..6 years tank and parts.
    The on demand are convenient but can be expensive to repair as stated before and do require annual manintence as per Mfg.
    Installation can be on the standard or power vented modles is quite straight forward.thet tipicatop last 10 years. Better investment unless you use a ton of waterl.
     
  15. Mar 11, 2019 #35

    porkchopmessiah

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    You can try hot water boosters made by Hatco, or Hubble... they are the industry standards for the restaurant biz...
    I install they all the time when the normal hot h2o heater cant provide enough hot water during heavy usage...might work for you...
     
  16. Mar 11, 2019 #36

    joeswine

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    I've used a power vented hwh for 20 years of wine making ,alway enough.
     

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