Southern Crush Day!

Discussion in 'Wine Making from Grapes' started by Johnd, Oct 28, 2016.

Wine Making Forum

Help Support Winemaking Talk by donating:

  1. Dec 5, 2016 #61

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Large Member WMT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    5,255
    Likes Received:
    4,676
    Location:
    S Louisiana
    That's what I'd try for sure. Why are kits are "acid balanced" with lots of malic acid, when we use MLB to get rid of the stuff in grape wines? I find kits to be tart, and that's what I think it is, malic acid. Makes no sense and I'd like to find out for myself. If it sucks, fine, lesson learned. I've run chromos on kits, that malic spot glows like a flashlight. Why does it work for grape wines but not kits? Our great grape wines exist with tartaric and lactic acid............My only hesitation is the concern that the manufacturers use sorbate in the production process, that'll bust the whole deal.
     
  2. Dec 5, 2016 #62

    ceeaton

    ceeaton

    ceeaton

    Fourth year

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    4,584
    Likes Received:
    4,145
    Location:
    Southern PA
    Well, if it doesn't work out you'll have a fine batch of cooking wine! Wonder if the MLB can even work on the malic in a kit if it was a chemical additive (not sure if it is natural or added). I think I heard someone here (maybe Mike ( @ibglowin )) that the MLB doesn't work on chemically added vs. natural malic, but I might be mistaken.
     
  3. Dec 5, 2016 #63

    ibglowin

    ibglowin

    ibglowin

    Moderator Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Messages:
    20,197
    Likes Received:
    9,579
    Location:
    Northern Nuevo Mexico
    Correct. MLB can only metabolize natural Malic and not the man made stuff.

     
    Johnd and ceeaton like this.
  4. Dec 5, 2016 #64

    Boatboy24

    Boatboy24

    Boatboy24

    No longer a newbie, but still clueless.

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    12,231
    Likes Received:
    7,416
    So, what kind of malic is in kits? Probably both, eh?
     
  5. Dec 5, 2016 #65

    ibglowin

    ibglowin

    ibglowin

    Moderator Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Messages:
    20,197
    Likes Received:
    9,579
    Location:
    Northern Nuevo Mexico
    Its a very proprietary process so who really knows but very well could be a mixture of sorts.

     
  6. Dec 5, 2016 #66

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Large Member WMT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    5,255
    Likes Received:
    4,676
    Location:
    S Louisiana
    I would presume that also, the juice from the original grapes should have it's own "natural" malic acid in there, enhanced by whatever "man made" malic is added to the kit.

    I don't know that I'll ever purposely pitch MLB into a kit, but if it happens on its own the way I describe above, so be it.........
     
  7. Dec 10, 2016 #67

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Large Member WMT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    5,255
    Likes Received:
    4,676
    Location:
    S Louisiana
    Today was moving day for the Fall wines, all having completed MLF a few weeks ago, except for the Merlot.

    The PS, which was at 3.57 preferment, finished out nicely at 3.68 and was racked off of the fine lees, appropriately dosed with KMS, and shelved in the wine room. Very dark, fruity, and slightly tannic at this point.

    The Koch Cab started at pH 3.82 and was brought down to 3.64 with acidulated water preferment, finished up at 3.77, smidge high for me. Went slow, added half gram per L tartaric and it's at 3.69, sulfited and stored.

    The Clone 169 Cab started at 3.62 and was adjusted to 3.57 preferment, finished up at 3.61, sulfited and stored as well.

    Pretty much into slow mode now, will get them in barrels over the next few months, run some pH/TA tests, taste and adjust after the barrel time is done.

    My frozen Spanish must shipment arrives next Thursday, time to kick back in gear!!
     
    Boatboy24 likes this.
  8. Dec 25, 2016 #68

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Large Member WMT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    5,255
    Likes Received:
    4,676
    Location:
    S Louisiana
    Since I delayed the Spanish must til after the first, I jumped on some other tasks. The double batch Fourtitude came out of the 40L barrel, into glass, and the Koch Cab from Lanza found a new home. Last taste was funky only a few weeks ago, today it was giant, fruity, big bodied and tannic, and obviously still quite green. It's going to be good for sure. I think I need another 40L barrel.

    Moved on to the Lanza Merlot, still in the warm part of the house, doing what Merlot does sometimes, fighting MLF. Ran a chromo and confirmed that it's still hanging on to some malic acid, but I think it's made a little progress. The malic spot is lighter, the lactic is much brighter than the last run. I'm going to have to wait it out.

    IMG_0724.jpg
     
    Tnuscan likes this.
  9. Feb 5, 2017 #69

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Large Member WMT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    5,255
    Likes Received:
    4,676
    Location:
    S Louisiana
    @norcal I did some topping and sulfiting this morning, and decided to take some pH readings on these 4 wines, since they were my Fall run, to see how they fared from a pH standpoint, compared to the jumps you saw in yours.

    All four completed both AF and MLF, and had a rise in pH under .2 units, from as little as .13 to a high of .18. So the average was around .155. Not the big jumps you saw, but significant enough to warrant a little tartaric acid work, bringing them down from the 3.7's and into the upper 3.5's / lower 3.6's.

    Interestingly, the wines with the lower pH's showed the larger changes in pH post fermentations, guess they had more of the stronger malic converted to lactic. Didn't do any TA's, will check that after barreling.........
     
    NorCal and ceeaton like this.
  10. Feb 6, 2017 #70

    geek

    geek

    geek

    Still lost.....

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    5,675
    Likes Received:
    2,235
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    CT
    John,
    What's the pH now on the Petite Syrah?

    I made my PS in the fall of 2015 and it's been in the high end, around 3.90 (went through MLF as well). I think is a bit tannic (haven't checked TA).

    So just wondering what did you end up with.
     
  11. Feb 6, 2017 #71

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Large Member WMT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    5,255
    Likes Received:
    4,676
    Location:
    S Louisiana
    Haven't checked TA either, but here's the quick history:

    Initially: pH 3.75, TA 5.0
    Adjusted: pH 3.57, TA 6.2
    Post AF and MLF: pH 3.77, TA ?

    This is the one that went up .20 units, it's a little high right now, planning on a light tartaric addition to get it down to the 3.60 range. Mine also is tannic, green, and astringent, but great nose and fruit taste, bitter in the finish. I believe that it is going to be really solid with some barrel time / aging, and plan to bottle about half as pure varietal, and use the other half in some blending.
     
    Tnuscan likes this.
  12. Feb 7, 2017 #72

    Tnuscan

    Tnuscan

    Tnuscan

    Tnuscan=Tennesseean

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2012
    Messages:
    975
    Likes Received:
    323

    I like that you posted the Initial, Adjusted, post AF and MLF data and hopefully the finished numbers. We need to make a spread sheet and post our data so we and others can see the whole picture. There are many threads that start with these but fail to publish them all, Including mine.

    As we finish our data we could copy and edit it to our first post on our thread. I find this information exciting and very informative. I actually read threads trying to put these things together by jotting them on paper.
     
    Johnd likes this.
  13. Feb 7, 2017 #73

    Tnuscan

    Tnuscan

    Tnuscan

    Tnuscan=Tennesseean

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2012
    Messages:
    975
    Likes Received:
    323
    Opps! Sorry my wine I was letting breath has a smell of bandaids and I bailed the post.

    What I was also going to say was I really enjoy your posts. They are very informative with the chromos and all the information you share. I always look forward to the next one for the updates.

    I/m off to pull numbers on the wine i'm drinking. lol
     
  14. Feb 7, 2017 #74

    geek

    geek

    geek

    Still lost.....

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    5,675
    Likes Received:
    2,235
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    CT
    Would be interested to know if you happen to check the current TA, assuming you are not making or adding tartaric until you know the TA.
     
    Tnuscan likes this.
  15. Feb 7, 2017 #75

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Large Member WMT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    5,255
    Likes Received:
    4,676
    Location:
    S Louisiana
    I will check the TA before making any additions, at this point in time, my assumption is that it will fall in the 5.5 -5.7 range, which would be good. Addition of about .5 g/l of tartaric would get me into a nice 6.xx g/l TA, and probably bring the pH down into the 3.6 range, and that would make me happy..........I'll make sure to take before and after TA readings and let you know how it turns out.
     
    Tnuscan likes this.
  16. Feb 7, 2017 #76

    geek

    geek

    geek

    Still lost.....

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    5,675
    Likes Received:
    2,235
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    CT
    I will try to check the TA again (did it long time ago and found it in the .8), so both pH and TA were high back then; this is why I never adjusted the pH down with tartaric, but I bought a new pH probe for my PH56 meter and will try to check the TA again using 15ml of wine (no water) and 0.2N solution.
     
    Johnd likes this.
  17. Feb 11, 2017 #77

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Large Member WMT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    5,255
    Likes Received:
    4,676
    Location:
    S Louisiana
    Bad night of sleep = up early playing mad scientist with the lab toys. Here's a recap of the fall grape wines:

    Lanza Clone 169 Cab Sav., Adjusted, Post AF & MLF - today
    Brix 26.9, 25, Dry
    pH 3.62, 3.57, 3.71
    TA 6.0, No test, 6.6

    Lanza Koch Cab Sav
    Brix 26.8, 25, Dry
    pH 3.82, 3.64, 3.77 (3.67 in barrel)
    TA 7.2, No test, 7.1 (7.0 in barrel)

    Lanza Merlot
    Brix 26.3, 25.2, Dry
    pH 3.49, 3.48, 3.42
    TA 6.2, No test, 8.0

    Lanza Petit Syrah
    Brix 24.9, 24.9, Dry
    pH 3.75, 3.57, 3.74
    TA 5.0, No test, 5.6

    Guess I kinda suck for not doing post adjustment TA readings, but I didn't. Would've been nice to see the progression.

    My plans:

    Cab 169 - perhaps a slight acid adjustment, .25 g/l to bring the pH down if bench testing warrants, otherwise, good so2 management.

    Koch Cab - same as above, note that the 12 gallons in the barrel were adjusted at barreling time, the other reading is from an unadjusted 3 gallon carboy.

    Merlot - no adjustments planned. pH looks a little suspect, decreasing in MLF, might not have done a good job mixing before AF. This wine, with lowest pH, took 2 months longer in MLF, but then again, it's a Merlot......

    PS - TA at 5.6 gives me some room to work, first go round probably .5 g/l should get the TA up into the 6's, pH down into the 3.6's.
     
    Boatboy24, stickman, geek and 2 others like this.
  18. Dec 3, 2017 #78

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Large Member WMT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    5,255
    Likes Received:
    4,676
    Location:
    S Louisiana
    No change on the PS, still in barrel a bit longer, Merlot is awaiting its turn, 169 is in the 12 gallon barrel for a few more months.

    Worked the Koch cab today, which has been in carboys for nearly 4 months after a 6 month barrel ride. While in carboys, it sat on a M+ French Wine Stix. Today, at pH 3.68 and TA 6.3, I racked, sulfited, and bottled all 12 gallons, yielding 62 bottles. Pretty happy to see no sediment at all in the carboys, time certainly works wonders.......

    The wine is still not terribly approachable, being both oaky and tannic, but has nice mouthfeel and finish. The fruit has been building over the bulk aging period and was good, I believe that some bottle time in the cellar will be just what it needs.
     
    stickman, Ajmassa5983 and Boatboy24 like this.
  19. Apr 25, 2018 #79

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Large Member WMT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    5,255
    Likes Received:
    4,676
    Location:
    S Louisiana
    Racked the Lanza Cab 169 our of the 40 L Vadai yesterday, one full 6 gallon carboy, and one partially full carboy. pH hadn't changed, still riding around the 3.71 mark, so after a little tasting, ended up adding a smidge of tartaric to the 6 gallon carboy, along with sulfite, in preparation for bottling sometime soon.

    The partially full carboy got a little more play time. Had two gallons of Chilean Malbec left over in jugs (oak cubes in them and tasting pretty nice) that i did some taste testing with. In the end, added most of the two gallons to top up the carboy and adjusted the sulfite. Little lower pH in the Malbec brought the blend to 3.64, pretty cool with that. Chileans didn't finish MLF, 169 did, so I'm spinning the wheel a little bit and keeping my fingers crossed. I doubt anything will happen with free SO2 on board, lots of bound SO2, and temps att 55F, but will wait a while to watch it before bottling. I really like the taste of this blend, both '16 vintages but one Spring and one Fall, and from two different continents, have to come up with an appropriate name for it some time in the future..
     
  20. Apr 25, 2018 #80

    ibglowin

    ibglowin

    ibglowin

    Moderator Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Messages:
    20,197
    Likes Received:
    9,579
    Location:
    Northern Nuevo Mexico
    I wish it were that easy to start MLF back up but yea, I would not lose any sleep worrying about spontaneous MLF in the bottle.

     
    Johnd likes this.

Share This Page