Remember 9/11? I seem to remember a significant curtailment of civil liberties after 9/11. Somehow that was deemed acceptable. Right now, we are experiencing approximately the same number of deaths EVERY DAY as happened on that awful morning.
SOME PEOPLE
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i watched the towers go down, standing on a strip mall roof, yes that was when bush stated the downfall of our nation,( certain people } were fine with the super spreader riots, where you can burn and destroy everything ,,recon from them,, how many got spread across our nation ? how many , but hell's bell's for the patriot's, i was merely telling about something that had occurred to me, was not aiming to start a argument , (certain folk } are free to drink what they want how they want, But Same Goes For Us Patriots Just The Same,,,
Dawg
Dawg
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Sometimes their is not much difference between freedom and free dumb. I remember the last time I put on my mask, it was painful and took effort to get the strings around my ears, hey it even fogged up my glasses, do not know how I managed.
Aside from the people who have died from Covid or have short/long term lingering affects, the bigger issue right now is how does the healthcare system cope. For every Covid patient occupying a hospital bed there is a patient on the outside, maybe scheduled for a hip replacement, bypass surgery, cancer surgery, accident etc that now has to wait. That is where the bigger problems lies, but as I said it is my free dumb to be self serving and ignore the well being of other
Aside from the people who have died from Covid or have short/long term lingering affects, the bigger issue right now is how does the healthcare system cope. For every Covid patient occupying a hospital bed there is a patient on the outside, maybe scheduled for a hip replacement, bypass surgery, cancer surgery, accident etc that now has to wait. That is where the bigger problems lies, but as I said it is my free dumb to be self serving and ignore the well being of other
balatonwine
The Verecund Vigneron
That is old news. Latest data and studies indicate that masks do help. They are not perfect. How much they help is open to debate. But every little be helps. And every little bit adds up to help a lot in total.
And while contact with food is probably not considered high risk (also based on data and available evidence), else meat packing plants would have to totally shut down, close contact to an unmasked persons is a problem especially with a positive person. And if she is working the cash register, that is very much a problem unless you pass your credit card or cash to her on a yard stick.
So you can probably enjoy your food, but lick your fingers clean, and do not touch your nose or eyes with them till you completely wash your hands. And maybe not going back till they "get it".
I mean seriously... Social convention and laws require most people to wear at least something like pants, and I have been to many proprietors (while growing up and when still living in the USA before I became an expat) that had signs that say "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service". This anti mask wearing thing is simply silly. In the end, it is only another piece of clothing. Like pants. Like a shirt. Like shoes. I feel on some days what would happen (if still living in the USA**) if I just walking in with a mask as my only bit of "clothing" and seeing if I got service from those "right to freedom" establishments.....
** In Hungary, mask regulations are mandatory nation wide in buses, trains, stores, etc. Huge fines if you do not follow the regulations. Not to mention the current 8:00 PM stay at home curfew.
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the reason it is old news is because they keep changing their minds , don't know now know with this virus thing but up till the leading causes of death in USA, was #-1,cancer #-2, heart disease #-3, doctors,,
Dawg
Dawg
so soked meat no problem, yet you say processing should be shut down , so what's the difference between raw meat and cooked meet sitting on a table open to the enclosed air with a china covid positive person together in a tightly enclosed space, after all open smoked meat sitting and being handling said meat, so in a tightly small enclosed area coughing so that very oxygen saturates you food?
sure
Dawg
winemanden
Senior Member
People have the right to their own opinions, I have no objection to that. If they don't wear a mask it's down to them. Two reasons I wear a mask, 1- I think it might help to stop me catching Covid, 2- I might have Covid and not know it. I don't want to be responsible for passing it on, so I wear a mask to hopefully prevent it if I do have it.
What gets me is that some people who's views are different to mine are deliberately spreading false information about masks and vaccination.
One of the things the objectors say is that it's only Flu. 1918-19 Sixty millions died from Spanish Flu.
What gets me is that some people who's views are different to mine are deliberately spreading false information about masks and vaccination.
One of the things the objectors say is that it's only Flu. 1918-19 Sixty millions died from Spanish Flu.
*This virus appears to be relatively easy to kill, example just let your object sit three days at room temp and the virus particle will dry/ denature
*Food rules which are designed to prevent E. coli and salmonella outbreaks should be overkill in killing any virus particles on the raw food. The BBQ should have had county health visiting at least once a year to check/ renew the certificate up by the cash register, ,,, ie the process is competent to kill pathogens.
*I have not seen any industry guidance saying that food factories should be shut down for covid. If a process was designed to make sterile cans it still does and if a process produces raw turkey we still know it needs to be cooked. Yes I have seen guidance on how to clean and also how to keep employees from getting covid. Yes when infection rates in a meat plant are high it will close for the purpose of stopping the outbreak. Yes I have stories from a decade ago about plants shutting down for listeria or salmonella,,,, we are just following the common sense old rules. The number one new rule is having employees wear face masks at all times, because there is concern with any coughing, sneezing and even loud expressive vocalizations. We have had similar guidance occasionally in past years.
*Industry worries about post process contamination! ! and I would worry about post process contamination from an infected worker/ patron/ cashier/ owner who does it all. This is why glass sneeze guards are on the buffet line. This is why sick employees have always been encouraged to stay home (and we keep our sick kids out of school) (and county health can shut down an establishment if servers are obviously sick). We are new enough in this that I haven’t seen revised standards for covid.
*It is frustrating for the experts since infection is so variable, ,,, if you get hospitalized probably says more about your risk factors (age is a major risk in this as well as every other disease), ,,, and the good news is that most infections will be mild. I am waiting for antibody studies which estimate how many were asymptomatic (loss of taste and smell is reported in a high percentage of asymptomatic folks off Italy)
*Food rules which are designed to prevent E. coli and salmonella outbreaks should be overkill in killing any virus particles on the raw food. The BBQ should have had county health visiting at least once a year to check/ renew the certificate up by the cash register, ,,, ie the process is competent to kill pathogens.
*I have not seen any industry guidance saying that food factories should be shut down for covid. If a process was designed to make sterile cans it still does and if a process produces raw turkey we still know it needs to be cooked. Yes I have seen guidance on how to clean and also how to keep employees from getting covid. Yes when infection rates in a meat plant are high it will close for the purpose of stopping the outbreak. Yes I have stories from a decade ago about plants shutting down for listeria or salmonella,,,, we are just following the common sense old rules. The number one new rule is having employees wear face masks at all times, because there is concern with any coughing, sneezing and even loud expressive vocalizations. We have had similar guidance occasionally in past years.
*Industry worries about post process contamination! ! and I would worry about post process contamination from an infected worker/ patron/ cashier/ owner who does it all. This is why glass sneeze guards are on the buffet line. This is why sick employees have always been encouraged to stay home (and we keep our sick kids out of school) (and county health can shut down an establishment if servers are obviously sick). We are new enough in this that I haven’t seen revised standards for covid.
*It is frustrating for the experts since infection is so variable, ,,, if you get hospitalized probably says more about your risk factors (age is a major risk in this as well as every other disease), ,,, and the good news is that most infections will be mild. I am waiting for antibody studies which estimate how many were asymptomatic (loss of taste and smell is reported in a high percentage of asymptomatic folks off Italy)
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yup as many opinions as the big boys an girls keep going back and forth, bout to get whip lash from the back and forth, one thing for sure our health is not their priority just what fills their pockets,
Dawg
Dawg
Lots of rumors and false information out there. But the facts are the CDC has never put out a statement saying masks don't work; never put out a statement saying masks cause an increased risk of Covid; never put out a statement saying a mask cause a dangerous build-up of carbon dioxide in your blood, and has never recommended not wearing a mask other than in the very beginning when masks were in very short supply and the CDC said they should be saved for healthcare workers and those in close contact with sick persons.
On average, in the USA 655,000 people die each year from heart disease and about 606,000 dies each year from cancer. Covid isn't on the top. However, the weekly death rate from Covid recently surpassed the others earlier this month.
ih the very beginning, so they start with a lie, hum, you put your beliefs in your mind and mine in mine, in the very beginning . a lie is a lie no matter the reason, at first, in the middle or lastly changes nothing, a lie is a lie, but like i said in deferent ways in other threads and this thread, you look at it your way and I'll do as i see fit, Fauci , surgeon general, big pharma, all have swayed to protect their self interest , that's one reason of hiding 70 years old meds that they cant make more on,,, Hydroxychloroquine, and more,
Dawg
Doctors say skeeters don't spread HIV. yet wont answer if a skeeter fills with contaminated blood then lands on you you smash it spreading that blood on you,, yes. yes the bite don't what about that belly full of contaminated blood, not to mention eggs have been deserted good for you, bad for you many times, it all goes to wha'ts best for those that seem live differently than they say,
yawn, I'm bored,
Dawg
yawn, I'm bored,
Dawg
at the beginning of this,,, beings i have every condition for it being dangerous to me, is when i stocked up, made my decisions for myself, by when profiteers were getting busted , it was to late to protect ones self, yes at that very beginning was the time to decide for one's self instead of sheep-people-ing, facts seem to change weekly if not Daily, odd huh?
Dawg
Dawg
THERE IS VARIATION IN ALL OF LIFE, BY CROP YEAR, BY MONTHS AFTER HARVEST, BY HOW FAST THE DRIERS WERE RUN OFF THE FIELD, ETC, . . .
Likewise one skilled in the art as in wine makes a guess as to what is real and collects experimental data on this years wine versus last years production and then tries to understand the rules for next years wine, YUP we get it wrong and make bad wine sometimes, , , , we cover our tracks by saying “we are 95% sure” or we are only “80% confident/ consistent in data” etc
COVID IS NEW AND WE ARE STILL LEARNING! no it is not odd
the way science works I collect experimental data on how rice will behave when it is run through a mill or parboil process, or instant process or flour mill and then I try it in a simulation of how home uses it or a cracker line in Georgia or a baby food plant.
The boss found it frustrating that I would tell him what was understood on a new problem and he spent politics on that guess/ understanding. Meanwhile I would start asking questions and find that old crop rice processes differently than new crop, or the silo was a mixed varieties of rice or the old standard Mars variety isn’t planted any more and the replacement doesn’t work. The science doesn’t change that fast, ,,,,,, the politics/ boss always ignored the 20% risk or the 5% risk and used emotion/ confidence to sell (keep his job) so yup he got caught with egg on his face. I find it odd that we humans like to ignore the conflicting information.
It is odd that we accept risk if we speed at 80 on a country road but don’t apply the same risk understanding to covid, ,,,,, or being 18 and getting pregnant.
we are still early in covid19 ,,, AND the folks that measure things already see that there is more than one covid strain therefore there will be a new covid29 or COVID35
Likewise one skilled in the art as in wine makes a guess as to what is real and collects experimental data on this years wine versus last years production and then tries to understand the rules for next years wine, YUP we get it wrong and make bad wine sometimes, , , , we cover our tracks by saying “we are 95% sure” or we are only “80% confident/ consistent in data” etc
COVID IS NEW AND WE ARE STILL LEARNING! no it is not odd
the way science works I collect experimental data on how rice will behave when it is run through a mill or parboil process, or instant process or flour mill and then I try it in a simulation of how home uses it or a cracker line in Georgia or a baby food plant.
The boss found it frustrating that I would tell him what was understood on a new problem and he spent politics on that guess/ understanding. Meanwhile I would start asking questions and find that old crop rice processes differently than new crop, or the silo was a mixed varieties of rice or the old standard Mars variety isn’t planted any more and the replacement doesn’t work. The science doesn’t change that fast, ,,,,,, the politics/ boss always ignored the 20% risk or the 5% risk and used emotion/ confidence to sell (keep his job) so yup he got caught with egg on his face. I find it odd that we humans like to ignore the conflicting information.
It is odd that we accept risk if we speed at 80 on a country road but don’t apply the same risk understanding to covid, ,,,,, or being 18 and getting pregnant.
we are still early in covid19 ,,, AND the folks that measure things already see that there is more than one covid strain therefore there will be a new covid29 or COVID35
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balatonwine
The Verecund Vigneron
What we had at the start was what one may call opinions based on "professional deformity". What I mean by that is experts and professionals get normalized in their profession to the "best practices" in an ideal professional situation for maximum efficiency. In a crisis, that may not be actual "best practice". Or in other words, not "real world reality", where even a little bit helping is better than nothing and demanding ideal efficiency is maybe counter productive. So initial statements that masks were not useful were based more on that "professional deformity" than real world, on the ground, needs. The idea that even if it ain't perfect, but anything helps, is now considered the better real world reality (a battle field analogy would be: bullets on target are ideal, but close enough is okay with hand grenades). Not to say the professionals were wrong. They just saw the world then through a different lens. But they have corrected themselves as times goes on because real scientists and professionals can say... okay, I got that wrong earlier, because adjusting views as more facts come in is normal, and not a sign of weakness, to a professional scientist (the technical term for this is Bayesian inference, which allows changes in thinking and conclusions as more and more information becomes available).
Hope this helps.
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oh i have no problem with any off that, just them stating facts before they have a clue,
Dawg
a most eloquent way to say, taken for granted, i agree 100% with you,What we had at the start was what one may call opinions based on "professional deformity". What I mean by that is experts and professionals get normalized in their profession to the "best practices" in an ideal professional situation for maximum efficiency. In a crisis, that may not be actual "best practice". Or in other words, not "real world reality", where even a little bit helping is better than nothing and demanding ideal efficiency is maybe counter productive. So initial statements that masks were not useful were based more on that "professional deformity" than real world, on the ground, needs. The idea that even if it ain't perfect, but anything helps, is now considered the better real world reality (a battle field analogy would be: bullets on target are ideal, but close enough is okay with hand grenades). Not to say the professionals were wrong. They just saw the world then through a different lens. But they have corrected themselves as times goes on because real scientists and professionals can say... okay, I got that wrong earlier, because adjusting views as more facts come in is normal, and not a sign of weakness, to a professional scientist (the technical term for this is Bayesian inference, which allows changes in thinking and conclusions as more and more information becomes available).
Hope this helps.
Dawg
you did take notice that i said SEEM TO CHANGE,, never stated that any fact changed,
just SEEMED to change, after all life is changing every second, even to this very day the experts are still at odd's with each other,
Dawg
Edit,,, good point “seemed to change”
if someone states there is only one answer we’all know the guy is wrong much of the time
a clue, ,,, yes we all start somewhere, with a best guess ,,, wise people improve
if someone states there is only one answer we’all know the guy is wrong much of the time
if you look at many of my posts you will see that I give three or five options on how to rack or sulphite or deacidify and then let “y’all” decide which holds most risk and most benefit for; your winery/ flavors you like (high alcohol,,tannic crabs)/ available hardware. A good expert will give more than one choice,,, after all, everyone is dealing with a different set of boundaries/ work demands/ available crops/ ,,,, and y’all won’t be surprised if option “three” is best.
a clue, ,,, yes we all start somewhere, with a best guess ,,, wise people improve
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