Shorting ML bacteria dosage

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Does malo bacteria work in the same way as yeast in the sense that the initial amount of bacteria present activates and then generates more bacteria to be able to attack all the malic acid ?

Or is the only bacteria working just whatever you’ve added? So if you were to underdose then the ‘malic to bacteria’ ratio could stress the bacteria and lead to incomplete mlf? I should have just enough, but begs the question if I did indeed short the bacteria a little would it be cool or na?
I have 1g for 350lbs
 
I had to go look at the morewinemaking site. I looked at two different malolactic bacteria CH16 says 1.5 grams. Good for 66 gallons. Enoferm Alpha says 2.5 grams good for 66 gallons. so 350 lbs by my guess gets you about 20 gallons of wine (I always think 100 lbs of grapes gets you about 6-7 gallons of final wine). So I think you are within range and should be good.

I think malolactic bacteria acts in mostly the same way as yeast, in that it does increase in size somewhat, but that is truly an I think, not an I know.
 
I had to go look at the morewinemaking site. I looked at two different malolactic bacteria CH16 says 1.5 grams. Good for 66 gallons. Enoferm Alpha says 2.5 grams good for 66 gallons. so 350 lbs by my guess gets you about 20 gallons of wine (I always think 100 lbs of grapes gets you about 6-7 gallons of final wine). So I think you are within range and should be good.

I think malolactic bacteria acts in mostly the same way as yeast, in that it does increase in size somewhat, but that is truly an I think, not an I know.
Oh yeah. I wasn’t asking about the if I had enough. I will. It’s vp41. 2.5g good for 66gal. So 1g good for 26.4gal. Plus I assume they overshoot dosage suggestions to be sure.

Im expecting ~35gal. Plus doing a few gal of rosé So actual wine volume low 20’s gal.
was curious though if say you added 1/2– does the malo keep doubling itself until enough bacteria is present to complete mlf? Have read a lot about mlf but never actually came across the specific science behind it and how strict we need to be to dosing recommendations.
 
I think the short answer is yes, the bacteria will multiply and hopefully complete the MLF, but remember that it will be in competition with other bacteria present. With a low dose, the MLF will probably take a bit longer to complete, but all of the parameters then become more important, pH, existing rogue microbial count etc., for example a high pH might give the upper hand to some lactobacilus that will gladly conduct the MLF for you. The higher dose culture helps provide a greater chance that the selected strain prevails.
 
I think the short answer is yes, the bacteria will multiply and hopefully complete the MLF, but remember that it will be in competition with other bacteria present. With a low dose, the MLF will probably take a bit longer to complete, but all of the parameters then become more important, pH, existing rogue microbial count etc., for example a high pH might give the upper hand to some lactobacilus that will gladly conduct the MLF for you. The higher dose culture helps provide a greater chance that the selected strain prevails.
So when using existing bacteria from a barrel for instance, there’s no way to control the amount - just allowing it to multiply enough to do its job. So I gotta assume when inoculating a culture with correct dosage its going to be much more than whatever you get from a barrel, right?

Because let’s say I think I have 1g remaining (just about the minimum recommended for my volume) but it actually measures out to .8. And then let’s say my yield is larger than anticipated— I could potentially be 20-30% light on my bacteria. But is that really any different or causing more stress than if using a barrel’s bacteria?

I think if doing a co-inoculation I’d let it ride. But if sequential I’d likely purchase new bacteria— which I’m thinking about doing for the 1st time on this wine.
 
I think you're correct, whatever you are adding is a larger population than what would come from a cleaned and sanitized barrel year after year. I heard a conversation from a producer in Burgundy, saying that after primary fermentation un- inoculated the wine goes to barrel in the cellar and often doesn't start ML until the following spring, he also said the wine stays in barrel for 15 to 18 months without racking and no SO2 until bottling. They steam the old barrels before filling, even if not sterile, the microbial count has been lowered. The main point here is that this is wine with very low pH which makes it selective to only certain types of bacteria, and very slow MLF. Obviously they have a lot of experience doing things this way; I wouldn't try this with a 3.9 pH Cab.
 
I think you're correct, whatever you are adding is a larger population than what would come from a cleaned and sanitized barrel year after year. I heard a conversation from a producer in Burgundy, saying that after primary fermentation un- inoculated the wine goes to barrel in the cellar and often doesn't start ML until the following spring, he also said the wine stays in barrel for 15 to 18 months without racking and no SO2 until bottling. They steam the old barrels before filling, even if not sterile, the microbial count has been lowered. The main point here is that this is wine with very low pH which makes it selective to only certain types of bacteria, and very slow MLF. Obviously they have a lot of experience doing things this way; I wouldn't try this with a 3.9 pH Cab.
lol. Hell no. I always see high ph/low acid expensive west coast wines and think it’s a shame for us home winemakers. Probably ideal numbers for that wine- but too difficult to maintain without all the gadgets.

same deal with native ferments. But knowing how different a lot of the pros can go from some of our ‘accepted safe practices‘ does make ya think and question things.
Leaving a barrel plugged and untouched for a year+ is one I’m trying myself. Got some old less-than-stellar wine in a carboy with a solid bung, and some in a barrel filled 1/11/20. Topped once in feb. Added kmeta once just recently. . 3.6ph. Bung has the natural vacuum. Eager to taste against each other.
 
Keep in mind, many commercial guys don't even add MLB. They just put the wine in barrels, where the MLB resides.
Yeah that was my same thought process after learning it does in fact multiply itself like yeast. And so shorting a dosage 20-30% shouldnt be a an issue. Possibly even helpful in lengthening mlf time.(since co-inocc can be lightning fast) Check post #5

It does make me curious though. I wonder what the cultured ML dosage equivalent would be to existing bacteria the barrel. I’d assume it’s super low - like 1/10th, if even that.
 
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The magnitude of the microbial cell count in the initial must is worth understanding. Obviously we don't normally have access to the data, but based on information from Lallemand, initial must Oenococcus counts are on the order of 500 to 1,000 cells/ml, Lactobacillus/Pediococcus on the order of 1,000 to 10,000 cells/ml, Gluconobacter/Acetobacter is in the 500 to 3,000 cells/ml range. Again these are order of magnitude numbers, so very clean undamaged fruit would be on the low end, and more damaged transported fruit could potentially be on the higher end.

When you add 1g/hL of the freeze dried ML culture, you're getting somewhere in the range of 1,000,000 cells/ml, in other words the selected culture cell count is greater than the existing bacteria by a factor of 100 or more. This is what increases the chance that the selected culture will dominate, even then, high pH favors Lactobacillus/Pediococcus. It's reported that this is part of the reason why coinocculation of ML works so well, the early addition of the selected culture is at a time when the cell count of existing microbes is lower, allowing the selected culture to increase to around 10 million cells/ml by the end of primary fermentation.

There is a war going on in the must and surprisingly, most of the time, things work out just fine.
 

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