Searching for Un-grafted Hybrids (Traminette)

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VinesnBines

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I have been ordering my vines from Double A and I REALLY like dealing with them but last year the selection was limited and many varieties were out of stock. This year is worse. I prefer to plant un-grafted hybrids because the winter care is so much easier in that I don't need to hill up the graft.

I wanted un-grafted Traminette but Double A was out of stock. I called and they said they were phasing out the un-grafted (standard) as they were moving to certified stock. I certainly prefer certified but not sure why they have decided to graft all the certified. Anyway, I managed to order enough standard Vidal to fill in the 2022 planting but I'm concerned about the future.

Has anyone else had this problem? Where else can I purchase un-grafted hybrids (Chardonel, Cayuga, Chambourcin, Tram)? I know the easy answer is root my own but I've failed miserably at rooting cutting; I will keep trying but in the meantime....
 

franc1969

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You could still buy the grafted grapes and just let the variety root. Hill up and never remove, essentially. I'd plant in a trench and then fill in with dirt/mulch over the next seasons.
Some of those grapes might be grafted because they grow better or fruit better on a rootstock vs. own roots. But I'd bet it's a monetary and fast growth issue for the nursery. Rootstock can be grafted to anything, and is cheap to grow lots of. Certified vines, you'd probably want to maximize the number of vines you can get, so 1 bud on a graft vs. rooting a cutting, which uses 3 or 4.
I am trying that simply because I have lots I can root and graft to, much fewer canes of wine grape wood.
 

VinesnBines

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That’s a thought. Tram does fine on it own roots so I’m sure it is a monetary decision by Double A. Most varieties do better when grafted but I’m opting for ease of care since I’m working toward 3 acres. Right now I have about 1/2 acre grafted and one acre self rooted. I would prefer to spend my energy covering the graft of vinifera rather than hybrids.
Thanks for the suggestion; that maybe the path I’m forced to take with hybrids.
 

franc1969

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This year has been really strange for all the nurseries. Odd weather and lots of orders, that's why I am grafting what I can get or can't buy.
 

VinesnBines

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I’m going to try my hand at grafting to see if I can make tall grafts. Those are vines with the graft about a foot above ground. No need to cover for winter. I don’t want to count on that for a 1/3 acre planting.
 

VinesnBines

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So finally the light came on as I was covering my Marechal Foch vines and found a cane that had fallen off the wire and rooted. Layering. This Spring, I'll try layering some of my canes and perhaps I'll be able to propagate with more success.

My best success with rooting cuttings has been taking the cutting and sticking it in the ground next to the mother vine. Usually if they are going to root, they have done so by early June.

I'm still hoping Double A ramps up production again. It all must be COVID related.
 

franc1969

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Layering works well for most vines. That's what I am going to try later for most of my own-root grapes. I am trying grafting on to a native vine that roots no matter what- several hybrids I've tried had an issue, but this did not. Apple I grafted did fine, so hopefully grape does as well. Rooting most things on their own does not work out well for me- I am too inconsistent with watering or have mildews.
I think DoubleA said they'd had unprecedented interest this year, other nurseries have said the same.
 

VinesnBines

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Just got an email from Double A to pre order for 2023. I thought this was an idea. Glad they read my mind. I must not be the only one to call and ask for vines.
 

treesaver

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Why not root some cuttings? I don’t grow it, but I bet some on here do!
 

VinesnBines

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I have failed miserably with rooting most any variety. I am going to try layering but that means I have to be more careful with herbicide and trimming. I've trying buying rooted cuttings from non-nurseries and that was another failure - the vines died in the mail. So you see, I have tried most things. 😢
 

treesaver

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My mamma always told me that if you fail, try try again. I’ve got about two acres of grapes, and the largest part of that is from vines that I rooted myself. It is kinda weird, but the first six or eight years I rooted vines, almost all of them took off, now the last four or five years, I have not had anywhere near as good of luck. This year I am going to prune earlier, like I used to, and root in sand, like I did when I didn’t know better! See if it works as good as it did when I didn’t know better,🙄🤔
 

VinesnBines

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I am going to keep trying but forget trying to root on the bench and heating mats. Too many just break and fail to develop roots. My best luck has been just sticking the cutting next to mama vine when pruning. The varieties that fail with that method will be layered. I know that works because I discovered a Foch that layered on it's own. Yes, I didn't get that piece off the ground.

I have to layer Concord. They never root from cuttings.

I may give the sand a try.

It bums me out because I can usually root a rock.
 

treesaver

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I hear you, bud. When it used to work and now doesn’t, I find weird. I ask myself, what has changed! The only thing that really changed for me was starting in sand, which I used to do, and….I’m pruning later, so the vines are being started later. This year I am going to take cuttings for rooting in Jan, and start them in sand, then transfer to potting soil, when they have white roots coming out. I find most varieties readily root, with norton being the toughest of all of them. Good luck, and wish me luck too!
 
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