Sanitizing solution confusion
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arcticsid
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Sorry I cant help you on that one Wine(do you have a first name?) Others have used Starsan and I will let them comment on its usage.
My LHBS is selling bulk Kmeta( as per my suggestion) for $2.99/lb. Thats alot of chemical. I personally still like to go with the 3 TBLS per gallon, but to reuse it seems a little extreme. The stuff isn't that expensive. it is indeed pretty "powerful" and will indeed take your breath away.
Keep in mind Wine. Cleaning and sanitizing are two completely different things. As far as anitizing goes, until I am sold on something different, I am going with the K meta. If you don't like the smell or the fumes, than don't breath it!! This sanitizing discussion will never end...you may as well ask about using plastic to ferment or age your wine. as long as these discussions live, we will always have something to talk about.
I will say one thing however, many in here and other places have said that the "non chlorinated" Oxi Clean, or similar powdered oxegen products work very nice for a cleaner. But, when it comes to sanitizing, the debate goes on. CP uses an iodine based something for a sanitizer, i think it is mentioned somewhere earlier on in this thread.
How much of a chance are you wiling to take after you spent all that money and time on a nice kit?
My LHBS is selling bulk Kmeta( as per my suggestion) for $2.99/lb. Thats alot of chemical. I personally still like to go with the 3 TBLS per gallon, but to reuse it seems a little extreme. The stuff isn't that expensive. it is indeed pretty "powerful" and will indeed take your breath away.
Keep in mind Wine. Cleaning and sanitizing are two completely different things. As far as anitizing goes, until I am sold on something different, I am going with the K meta. If you don't like the smell or the fumes, than don't breath it!! This sanitizing discussion will never end...you may as well ask about using plastic to ferment or age your wine. as long as these discussions live, we will always have something to talk about.
I will say one thing however, many in here and other places have said that the "non chlorinated" Oxi Clean, or similar powdered oxegen products work very nice for a cleaner. But, when it comes to sanitizing, the debate goes on. CP uses an iodine based something for a sanitizer, i think it is mentioned somewhere earlier on in this thread.
How much of a chance are you wiling to take after you spent all that money and time on a nice kit?
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Yes Starsan is fine for sanitizing. You still need to use a cleanser first.
Thanks Guys. I will have to say that I find Oxy Clean free or Sun oxygenated cleaner to work great on my beer making equipment so +1 on that! Glad to hear there is no problem with Starsan as I have great luck with that for beer making as well so that will make life a little simpler. arcticsid, I fixed my sig line to reflect my name or nickname as it were, sorry about that.
Hmm, well I thought I fixed my sig line that is? Any way Al is whatch ya can call me if you like.
Hmm, well I thought I fixed my sig line that is? Any way Al is whatch ya can call me if you like.
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arcticsid
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Al, even if thats not your real name LOL, you arent required to say so or name your location in here. but in alot of aspects its nice to know where you are.
So many people in here anymore it gets hard to keep track of whose who. because we are all friends, at least I hpe so, it gets really old having to refer to someone by their "username". keep your "username" to what ever you like but I would rather refer to you as Al than "hey "MDFR GH Brewer"
Nice to have you on board all the same I hope we can all learn and share together!!
Troy
So many people in here anymore it gets hard to keep track of whose who. because we are all friends, at least I hpe so, it gets really old having to refer to someone by their "username". keep your "username" to what ever you like but I would rather refer to you as Al than "hey "MDFR GH Brewer"
Nice to have you on board all the same I hope we can all learn and share together!!
Troy
Thanks for the welcome Troy. Al is actually a a shortened version of my first name, it's as good as any of the names that I answer to.....lol I must say that so far this seems like one of the friendliest forums that I have checked out and everyone seems quite helpful so I can see why it's membership is growing.
With a k-meta solution, I too use the "sniff" test ... if it makes me cough, the k-meta solution is good to go. Interestingly enough, k-meta sanitizing strength solution lasts longer in my spray bottle than in a 1 gallon jug. One must be more porous than the other.
I also keep a 2 gallon bucket (with an o-ring snap lid) of Star San sanitizing strength mixture in our wine making area to give things a quick soak. I use litmus paper to measure the acid level. Seems I listened to a recording from the Star San inventor who said if the ph is greater than 3.0, the solution is still good to go. A good source for the food-safe, o-ring lid buckets is your local bakery.
We use both k-meta and Star San
I also keep a 2 gallon bucket (with an o-ring snap lid) of Star San sanitizing strength mixture in our wine making area to give things a quick soak. I use litmus paper to measure the acid level. Seems I listened to a recording from the Star San inventor who said if the ph is greater than 3.0, the solution is still good to go. A good source for the food-safe, o-ring lid buckets is your local bakery.
We use both k-meta and Star San
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Dugger
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Some time ago I switched from Sodium Meta to OxySan for sanitizing - it is an oxygen based no rinse product and is non toxic; however, it's not reusable and loses its effectiveness after 12 hours so I do use more of it in the long run. I also switched from pink cleaner ( chlorine based) to a product called EcoLox, which is also environmentally friendly, making it easier on the septic tank system and also easier to breathe in my confined wine making area.
.. Doug
.. Doug
Star san if a great sanitizer but is also a little high priced to be using for wine. I use it only for beer cuse sulfites and beer dont go well together especially if you are goig to bottle carb. Sulfite is way cheaper and also very good sanitizer. They both are great in the fact that they can be stored for long peroids of time unlike Iodophor which is only good for around 12 hours.
MarineDoc
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I too am confused about cleaning vs sanitizing.
On the label it says
"Description: This compound is used to sanitize winemaking equipment. It cleans with active oxygen, and does not contain chlorine or bisulfite. Effectively removes fermentation residues.
Use: Dissolve one tablespoon of B-Brite powder in one gallon of water to create a sanitizing solution. Sanitize winemaking equipment for at least one minute, then rinse with clear tap water. Discard solution after use.
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Then from the same supplier, on the Potassium Metabisulfite page is goes on to say:
"Description: Potassium Metabisulfite is added to wine to inhibit bacteria and yeast growth, as well as slow down oxidation. It may leave an unpleasant aftertaste in wine if the dose is too high. This chemical is also used in a water solution as an antiseptic rinse to sanitize equipment. It is identical to, but better than, Sodium Metabisulfite, because it does not add sodium to one's diet.
CAUTION: Some people, particularly asthmatics, can have a severe allergic reaction to this substance.
Use: For wine: 1/8 teaspoon (1 gram) of powder per gallon of wine provides 150 ppm free SO2. A little bit goes a long way, so be careful! Always test the free S02 content of your wine (using Titrets and Titret holder) to determine the proper amount to add. Generally speaking, the target free SO2 for red wines is 20-30 ppm and 25-40 ppm for white wines. The exact target depends upon the pH of the wine."
For sanitizing solution: Dissolve 1 to 2 oz. (2 to 4 tablespoons) Potassium Metabisulfite powder in one gallon of water."
I guess my questions are:
1. Is B-Brite alone enough to clean and sanitize my equipment?
2.Should I be using both products to clean and sanitize.
3.What IS the best method to clean and sanitize?
Information is confusing for a newbie.
Thanks
many of the oxygen-type cleaners hint that they also sanitize to some degree but do not get into specifics because in order to officially be a sanitizer they need to be certified as such which requires registration and lab trials, etc. I suspect many of these would do alright at sanitizing given the correct strength and contact time but we don't readily know these so it's easier to stay away from these products as sanitizers and just use a second product for that duty.
what these primarily do however is Clean, b-brite, one-step, pbw, etc. all use similar components to clean. oxygen, peroxide, or something similar with their own proprietary surfactants and other additives.
sanitizers like the iodine-based liquids, or k-meta/sodium-meta, etc are not effective cleaners but can be more effective sanitizers than the oxygen cleaners because their use as a sanitizer is well known and prescribed with measurements and contact time for efficacy.
procedure depends on what you're cleaning - containers or tools/instruments.
i clean all physical visible dirt or crud off everything with soap and water and rinse well after each use. on a big activity day like starting wine or racking or bottling, i will soak everything in PBW or One-step to fully clean, then depending on my needs will make up a batch of k-meta sanitizer to dip items to sanitize or more often, will put the solution of k-meta+citric acid into a household spray bottle and spray things before using them in wine. (this solution will keep for a good amount of time in a spray bottle so there's less waste.) spray the hydrometer or spoon or mix-stir or test cylinder... for hoses and tubing i will have clean hoses because i already cleaned them fully after my last use, so i'll run PBW or One-Step through them for a bit, drain and then run some k-meta solution through them and drain. i'll spray the outside of the tubing with k-meta or soak the entire hose in k-meta solution depending on what i have available. typically the spray bottle is most convenient.
if you do a good job of keeping your equipment clean after use, then the cleaning right before the next use can go pretty quickly with much of the focus simply on sanitization.
empty carboys i spray a bit of k-meta soluition into them and bung them with a solid stopper. that little bit of k-meta gassifies and keeps mold or other bacterial activity from occurring while the carboy is in storage. you only need a little bit of solution to do this. one or two sprays of the sprayer. next use i rinse out.
what can get confusing is that k-meta is used as both a wine preservative in a low-strength solution and as a sanitizer in a much higher-strength solution.
follow the directions on the sanitizers - sanitizing is the last step before wine contact and it is okay to drip dry the items before touching the wine but don;t rinse as that will defeat the purpose of sanitizing in the first place - unless you are rinsing with a sterile liquid like cooled boiled water.
think of sanitizing somewhere between clean and sterile. sterile is not really attainable in practice, but we want something more than visibly clean, we want it visibly clean and also sanitized which means the bulk of microorganisms have been dealt with.
the k-meta plays an additional role as trace amounts remaining in carboys or on tools and tubing during rackings and bottlings will reduce the effects of oxygen exposure during these activities.
Old Philosopher
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After a lot of reading, and asking questions, I went with K-Meta.
The package I got said, "1/8 tsp per 6 gallons of wine as a stabilizer; 3 TBS per gallon of water as a sanitizer"
I appreciated the simple directions, and not a lot of techno-babble.
The package I got said, "1/8 tsp per 6 gallons of wine as a stabilizer; 3 TBS per gallon of water as a sanitizer"
I appreciated the simple directions, and not a lot of techno-babble.
cpfan
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OP:After a lot of reading, and asking questions, I went with K-Meta.
The package I got said, "1/8 tsp per 6 gallons of wine as a stabilizer; 3 TBS per gallon of water as a sanitizer"
I appreciated the simple directions, and not a lot of techno-babble.
Simple instructions...yes.
Correct...no. K-meta is not a stabilizer. It should be used in conjunction with potassium sorbate (the real stabilizer).
Omitted...K-meta is an anti-oxidant.
Steve
Keep it simple buy Potassium Metabisulfite by the pound and just drop 2 or 3 TBL spoon in a gallon of water and if you like a tblspoon of citric acid. It is also easier to measure a 1/4 teaspoon of Potassium Metabisulfite than crushing 5 campten tabs. Also keep some handy in a spray bottle. If your hydrometer and wine thief come in a container that is sealable pour some in it and store them that way, after a good rinse of course, and they will always be ready and sanatized. You can do same with spoon 1 1/2" PVC and 2 end caps.
bob>>If your hydrometer and wine thief come in a container that is sealable pour some
Ah Bob ... k-meta in sanitizing solution quantities loses its effectiveness over time (which varies in container, etc) ... to err on the safe side, I wouldn't just store my equipment in solution and consider it good to go.
I store my carboys and fermenters with a little k-meta is them ... and have to periodically change out the solution ... to keep the bugs, mold etc out of them ... but to really consider them "sanitized," I mix up fresh solution for everything.
Ah Bob ... k-meta in sanitizing solution quantities loses its effectiveness over time (which varies in container, etc) ... to err on the safe side, I wouldn't just store my equipment in solution and consider it good to go.
I store my carboys and fermenters with a little k-meta is them ... and have to periodically change out the solution ... to keep the bugs, mold etc out of them ... but to really consider them "sanitized," I mix up fresh solution for everything.
K-meta will hold its strenght for quite some time esoecially if you use citric acid at the same ratio of kmeta with it. Ive had gallon jugs with lids for well over 4 months that were still very strong. The more headspace there is in a vessel the fatser it will lose power though due to exposure. DStar san will last quite awhile also. Iodophor losses its ability after 12 hours. Dont know much about Brewey wash though.
