Sanitizing bottles.

Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum

Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:

Vlabruz

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2022
Messages
256
Reaction score
134
Are you using the same dosage as you would to make a sanitizing solution for equiptment? I see most use 2-3 tbs of k meta per gallon if water. I see some people say 1-2 teaspoons per gallon to rinse bottles. How about percentage? A 1 % solution or a 5% solution something different?
 

Rice_Guy

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
2,844
Reaction score
3,685
Location
Food Industry - - Retired
I use the same stock sanitizer solution on everything. If it works on siphon tubes it will work on a clean glass bottle.

Logic answer, commercial canned foods have enough heat treatment to kill nine log cycles of bacteria. Plain cold water washing removes five log cycles of contamination and adding soap to a cleaning solution increases this to six log cycles of bacterial reduction. , ,,,, your bottles are pretty close to what industry (FDA rules) called sterile just by using soap water.
 

balatonwine

The Verecund Vigneron
Joined
May 9, 2017
Messages
1,459
Reaction score
1,590
Location
Badacsony wine region. Hungary
Are you using the same dosage as you would to make a sanitizing solution for equiptment? I see most use 2-3 tbs of k meta per gallon if water. I see some people say 1-2 teaspoons per gallon to rinse bottles. How about percentage? A 1 % solution or a 5% solution something different?

I use different chemicals to sanitize different types of equipment. The wood staves on my press get a different treatment than my glass demijohns. I use to use the same KMeta rinse for all, but my wine suffered. Since adjusting what and how I sterilize for the material, my wine is much better.

For glass, a 1% KMeta solution is what I use. I actually use a scale. But a level tablespoon is about 15 grams. One gallon is about 3.8 liters (and since a cm3 of water is one gram, that is 3800 grams). A 1% solution is thus closer to 3 tablespoons than 2 teaspoons if my math is correct.

Water can have a lot of critters in it. Not necessarily the actual municipality water directly*. But your pipes and tap exit my be a different story. Lots of things can grow at the moist warm end of your faucet. Best to avoid that in your wine.

Which is why I use a 1% solution of KMeta myself. Just to be safe. And given the neutral pH of the water, not a lot is going into solution, but a 1% solution should be enough. At the more neutral tap water pH, adding 2 teaspoons might be more like not adding any KMeta at all, unless one also adds some acidity (such as citric acid which of course is a different treatment and different story).

Hope this helps.

*https://www.researchgate.net/public..._the_bacteriological_quality_of_tap_water_and
 

balatonwine

The Verecund Vigneron
Joined
May 9, 2017
Messages
1,459
Reaction score
1,590
Location
Badacsony wine region. Hungary
The package on my K-meta suggests I use 2 oz per gallon to sanitize - so that is about 4 T (and 2 T is a fluid ounce, so 2 fl oz /128 fl oz 1.5%

My package is a bit more sloppy. They suggest 1%-2%. Cut in the middle and we get the gentle mean of 1.5%. That is good for me. 😎
 

bjoll001

Junior
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
14
Reaction score
15
I use same sanitizer for everything, equipment bottles etc. 1 TBS k-meta and 1 TBS Citric Acid per gallon of water.
 

BernardSmith

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
2,239
Location
Saratoga Springs
My package is a bit more sloppy. They suggest 1%-2%. Cut in the middle and we get the gentle mean of 1.5%. That is good for me. 😎
But good to know that 1% +/- is what is being called for. I had not thought about the ratios one way or another and had always weighed the K-meta I was going to use, but 4 T makes creating a solution so much less of a task.
I use same sanitizer for everything, equipment bottles etc. 1 TBS k-meta and 1 TBS Citric Acid per gallon of water.
Different but related question. For treating fruit to remove indigenous yeast and bacteria , what is the concentration of K-meta you use?
 

bjoll001

Junior
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
14
Reaction score
15
But good to know that 1% +/- is what is being called for. I had not thought about the ratios one way or another and had always weighed the K-meta I was going to use, but 4 T makes creating a solution so much less of a task.

Different but related question. For treating fruit to remove indigenous yeast and bacteria , what is the concentration of K-meta you use?
50 ppm to the grapes before fermentation. I calculate if sulfite to be added amount based on the weight.
 

B-dubya

Junior
Joined
Apr 14, 2019
Messages
11
Reaction score
10
I've only been making wine for a few years but I do a two step sanitize and rinse before bottling. I reuse bottles so they get cleaned with starsan solution and rinsed with tap water immediately after using and before storing in boxes - waiting for bottling day. Before bottling I use P. Meta solution to sanitize and rinse with distilled water. In two years I haven't had one bad experience. Some may say my approach is going too far - using distilled to rinse. I know guys that rinse with tap water after sanitizing and they don't seem to have problems. I don't get that approach because tap water can add bacteria.
 

BernardSmith

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
2,239
Location
Saratoga Springs
Very true- In my opinion. Those who use well water may introduce bacteria and those who use city water may find their faucets are less sanitary than they imagine- good enough for daily use but liable to introduce bacteria and mold that will thrive and grow in tools and equipment that touch fruit/must/wine which will be kept at close to room temperature for months
 

Nebbiolo020

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2019
Messages
202
Reaction score
183
I find using Star San to be more effective and easier as a sanitizer for winemaking you should look into it, I use it for bottles.
 

Nebbiolo020

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2019
Messages
202
Reaction score
183
Very true- In my opinion. Those who use well water may introduce bacteria and those who use city water may find their faucets are less sanitary than they imagine- good enough for daily use but liable to introduce bacteria and mold that will thrive and grow in tools and equipment that touch fruit/must/wine which will be kept at close to room temperature for months
Which is why filtering water is a good idea all the water I use in my winemaking is from my well but is run through reverse osmosis and carbon filters to remove anything including potential farm run off before being used to clean anything or to rehydrate wine barrels.
 

Vlabruz

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2022
Messages
256
Reaction score
134
I find using Star San to be more effective and easier as a sanitizer for winemaking you should look into it, I use it for bottles.
I do have it and may start using it for bottles because I have so much. I just thought kmeta solution was the go-to for pre fill rinsing
 

Rice_Guy

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
2,844
Reaction score
3,685
Location
Food Industry - - Retired
Very true- In my opinion. Those who use well water may introduce bacteria and those who use city water may find their faucets are less sanitary than they imagine- good enough for daily use but liable to introduce bacteria and mold that will thrive and grow in tools and equipment that touch fruit/must/wine which will be kept at close to room temperature for months
Well water contamination depends on where you are. The standard here is a new well needs to be tested and should have an E. coli count of zero per 100ml.
Iron and sulfur metabolizing bacteria are common (use minerals as an energy source) but do not present a health risk. E. coli is the common organism which is used as an indicator of seepage from a fecal source (they grow in human/ animal/ bird intestines). In natural water as streams E. coli will not survive 30 days,,, ie detection says contamination is fresh. Mold would be unusual since drinkable water should not have sugar/ carbon source that mold requires. A lab test for yeast and mold should be zero.

Relative risk; if I am testing fresh juice an E. coli count of 1 to 10 is not unusual. If I am testing yeast and mold a count of 100 per ml is not unusual, note if it gets above 100,000 you should taste the byproducts. ,,, ie the must we are fermenting and dirty equipment holds a bigger bacterial and mold risk than well water.
Wine is a preservative system! The food industry knows that the crop comming off the vineyard always has spoilage organisms so we promptly juice the crop, add sulphite, reduce air exposure, add target yeast etc.

If you live near a chemical factory or animal feed lot your risk is higher. @BernardSmith Know who your neighbor are!
 

Bmd2k1

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2021
Messages
431
Reaction score
339
I crush a couple campden tablets in distilled water and use my Ferrari bottle washer -- let em drain upside down and fill 'em up :)

Cheers!
 

wineview

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2018
Messages
708
Reaction score
362
I find using Star San to be more effective and easier as a sanitizer for winemaking you should look into it, I use it for bottles.
I am a big fan of StarSan. Sometimes tap water doesn’t mix well with it. Minerals will make it cloudy. I’ve read that means it may not be as potent. I started using distilled water as a regular practice. Also check the ph. If it’s below 3.0 you are good to go.
 

Nebbiolo020

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2019
Messages
202
Reaction score
183
I am a big fan of StarSan. Sometimes tap water doesn’t mix well with it. Minerals will make it cloudy. I’ve read that means it may not be as potent. I started using distilled water as a regular practice. Also check the ph. If it’s below 3.0 you are good to go.
I use filtered water for Star San, I have a reverse osmosis filter.

But I have never had a single issue or infection in any wine that I have made, of course I use industry standard wine sanitizers and cleaners first and then spray with Star San before putting must into tanks for extra measure it just makes sure that I’m not at risk of spoilage organisms.
 

Latest posts

Top