Sacrificial Oak during Fermentation

[Bmd2k1]

for a 6gal batch of vino -- wondering what the sweet spot range is for the amount of oak to use during fermentation?

Does the type and toast level of this sacrificial oak really matter much?

Most kits seem to include between 30-45g of chips.

Cheers!

 

[winemaker81]

IMO the kit vendors put in the least amount of fermentation oak they can get away with. They are in it for the profit (which is every company in every industry), so they're going to put in the minimum to reduce cost and price to be competitive.

I reviewed my notes from the last 4 years. Due to inconsistent measurement styles, I can't give you an exact answer, but I'll estimate from my notes. I buy shredded toasted oak in 1 lb bags. The label says to use 2 to 3 cups for 6 gallons of wine, and I used the entire package (4-1/4 cups) in 144 lbs of grapes, which produced 9 to 10 gallons of finished wine.

The oak vendor says to use 8 to 12 oz in 6 gallons of wine. Doing the math, that's just a bit more than the 1 to 1.5 oz included in kits.

My recommendation is to use 8 oz oak in a 23 liter kit. Larger packages are generally cheaper per unit, and if kept dry, your grandchildren will be able to use oak you buy today.

Type? Based upon inference, shredded oak is more efficient than chips. There is a lot more surface area, which increases interaction with the wine during the rather short fermentation cycle. IMO using cubes, staves, or spirals is a waste of money for fermentation.

In the past I tried light toast oak, and my results were not impressive. I suggest going with medium or medium-plus toast.

A short test in 2020 indicated to me that the type of oak for fermentation doesn't matter. I am now using American as it's cheaper in the USA. Aging oak is different -- I personally prefer Hungarian for most wines.

 

[RottenGrapeJuice]

IMO the kit vendors put in the least amount of fermentation oak they can get away with. They are in it for the profit (which is every company in every industry), so they're going to put in the minimum to reduce cost and price to be competitive.

I reviewed my notes from the last 4 years. Due to inconsistent measurement styles, I can't give you an exact answer, but I'll estimate from my notes. I buy shredded toasted oak in 1 lb bags. The label says to use 2 to 3 cups for 6 gallons of wine, and I used the entire package (4-1/4 cups) in 144 lbs of grapes, which produced 9 to 10 gallons of finished wine.

The oak vendor says to use 8 to 12 oz in 6 gallons of wine. Doing the math, that's just a bit more than the 1 to 1.5 oz included in kits.

My recommendation is to use 8 oz oak in a 23 liter kit. Larger packages are generally cheaper per unit, and if kept dry, your grandchildren will be able to use oak you buy today.

Type? Based upon inference, shredded oak is more efficient than chips. There is a lot more surface area, which increases interaction with the wine during the rather short fermentation cycle. IMO using cubes, staves, or spirals is a waste of money for fermentation.

In the past I tried light toast oak, and my results were not impressive. I suggest going with medium or medium-plus toast.

A short test in 2020 indicated to me that the type of oak for fermentation doesn't matter. I am now using American as it's cheaper in the USA. Aging oak is different -- I personally prefer Hungarian for most wines.

I was looking into FT Rouge tannin powder to act as a sacrificial tannin in conjunction with Lallzyme EX and saw this message

Important!: If being used in conjunction with one another, tannins should be added 6-8 hours after the addition of the enzymes or you run the risk of having the tannins reacting with and removing the enzymes before they have had a chance to do their job!.

Is this a known thing that you run a risk by adding tannin and enzymes together? I’m not sure what 6-8 hours is going to do given that the enzymes recommend a couple days minimum to complete their job. My intuition tells me that it makes more sense to add the tannin at first during the bulk of fermentation and then add the enzymes 2-3 days before the end of fermentation and you would get the best of both worlds.

 

[winemaker81]

Is this a known thing that you run a risk by adding tannin and enzymes together?

I have no experience with it, but if the vendor gives you a warning, it's best to believe it. A smart vendor will be conservative, to avoid consumer problems (and lawsuits).

My guess is that enzyme activity is not a continuous, homogeneous thing. Some effects will occur immediately while others take longer. Trusting your intuition over Scott Lab's practical testing is a bad idea.

 

[Snafflebit]

My guess it that tannins will increase activation energy necessary to lyse the pectins and cellulose in the fruit and other proteins. The whole point of enzymes is to lower the activation energy necessary to perform a process that would happen anyway but is too slow for it to be useful. Tannin or anything added to the must will create more useless surfaces for the enzyme to encounter through its motion in the liquid and hinder the process.

 

[Raptor99]

I've been adding my sacrificial tannins up front, along with the pectic enzyme. I think I'll change that, and add the tannins after the initial 24 hours on PE.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I was looking into FT Rouge tannin powder to act as a sacrificial tannin in conjunction with Lallzyme EX and saw this message

Important!: If being used in conjunction with one another, tannins should be added 6-8 hours after the addition of the enzymes or you run the risk of having the tannins reacting with and removing the enzymes before they have had a chance to do their job!.

Is this a known thing that you run a risk by adding tannin and enzymes together? I’m not sure what 6-8 hours is going to do given that the enzymes recommend a couple days minimum to complete their job. My intuition tells me that it makes more sense to add the tannin at first during the bulk of fermentation and then add the enzymes 2-3 days before the end of fermentation and you would get the best of both worlds.

The logic is that tannin as a chemical class binds with protein. Enzymes are proteins therefore if you added them at the same time the new free protein (enzyme) quickly binds with the new free polyphenol. Enzymes are neat in that a little does a lot of work, the protein can diffuse from one substrate to another and then another. I like your logic if the tannin has been in the system it should be occupied. A guess though is that Lallezyme EX is sold to increase extraction/ break down the plant cells which is an immediate concern for fresh fruit then the yeast are starting to build up their population.