Roasted Almond Wine.. It's your goy's fault!

Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum

Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:

BigDaveK

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2022
Messages
1,881
Reaction score
3,370
Location
Hocking Hills, OH
It's cleared. Still some oil on top. I have a little more headspace than I like, but what do I top it with? I ended up with a perfect gallon. What wine goes with almonds? Maybe I could water down some vodka to 20% for a topper. I like the idea of the extract. I think that will be next for me, too.
You could possibly use an almond tea but going that route I would make the tea super strong, many multiple bags per cup. Definitely not my first choice option but...if you're desperate...

For future reference, I bottled some bone dry apple, pear, and tomato in 375's just to use for topping.

The extract idea sounds interesting but I wonder how much would be needed to be noticeable in a gallon?

It just occurred to me, is this the "nut" thread or the "Dave" thread...or...is there a difference? 😅
 

vinny

Mildly Amused
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2022
Messages
1,680
Reaction score
3,858
Location
Central Alberta
You could possibly use an almond tea but going that route I would make the tea super strong, many multiple bags per cup. Definitely not my first choice option but...if you're desperate...

For future reference, I bottled some bone dry apple, pear, and tomato in 375's just to use for topping.

The extract idea sounds interesting but I wonder how much would be needed to be noticeable in a gallon?

It just occurred to me, is this the "nut" thread or the "Dave" thread...or...is there a difference? 😅
I was just noting that myself. Make a post about nut wine and like a moth to a flame...
 

BigDaveK

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2022
Messages
1,881
Reaction score
3,370
Location
Hocking Hills, OH
I think I'll skip my usual "I'm going for it!" and just post here.
Transferred this morning at a little under 1.020. The hazelnut flavor is really wonderful! Still no obvious oil globules but if I swirl the jug the glass looks oily. I wound up with an extra quart so it should get me through the first racking for topping. And now we wait....
hazelnut.jpg

Didn't want to waste the nuts. They still had a lot of flavor but were a little yeasty, of course. @David Violante here's an idea for you. I rinsed them off and made hazelnut biscotti. Turned out really well and I have enough for a second batch. This one I will post in the bread thread.

biscotti 2.jpg
 

David Violante

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2020
Messages
737
Reaction score
841
Location
New York
I racked this evening as well, in the area of 1.008 and still going, temp staying about 73F. You can see the oil layer 5 mins after racking in the picture. I skimmed that off and am waiting for fermentation to finish, it hasn’t reappeared yet. I imagine it will as things settle down. Everything definitely had a fine layer of oil on it, but was easily removed with a little hot water and dawn. I’m going to end up needing to use a bit of something to top off after a final racking as well. Depending on the flavor I end up with, I may use some everclear or try some apple cider. I won’t need much.

Dave, nice idea to make biscotti! The pecans would be good for that too. Not great for a healthy salad though. They’re better crunchy.

3B0E8AF1-E550-4AF7-B1F7-364A89250CA3.jpeg
 

BigDaveK

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2022
Messages
1,881
Reaction score
3,370
Location
Hocking Hills, OH
Wow! I have nothing near that amount of oil, at least not yet. It's a bit surprising (and mysterious) because my initial research showed almond, pecan, and hazelnut were close in the amount of fat.
Took this about 30 minutes ago so almost 24 hours in secondary.

hazel 2.jpg
 

vinny

Mildly Amused
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2022
Messages
1,680
Reaction score
3,858
Location
Central Alberta
Wow! I have nothing near that amount of oil, at least not yet. It's a bit surprising (and mysterious) because my initial research showed almond, pecan, and hazelnut were close in the amount of fat.
Took this about 30 minutes ago so almost 24 hours in secondary.

View attachment 97073
Ya, I think I had a little more than this.

I didn't have as much as Dave has pictured above in my entire batch, though.
 

David Violante

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2020
Messages
737
Reaction score
841
Location
New York
I didn’t do anything to remove the oils from the pecans after roasting, no paper bag, no paper towels, nada. After having skimmed off the amount there from an earlier photo, I don’t see an appreciable collection again, yet. As yours, mine is still apparently fermenting. I’m quite amazed. Once that’s finished and it calms down and begins clearing we may see more. I don’t know if the CO2 rising through the liquid would help to bring oils up to the top or maintain some micro mixing near the surface when they break. Or both, or neither. It still smells great though!
 

David Violante

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2020
Messages
737
Reaction score
841
Location
New York
I'm pretty sure I'm done fermenting (well my pecan wine is...) and I've sopped up most of the oil as far as I can tell. So, here's a question @joeswine or anyone with the experience of making an extraction... @Rice_Guy ... where does the oil go?

There was a lot of oil in the pecan wine, which I would like to try to avoid in a finished product. I think I remember reading that in the extraction method there was no fuss or muss, easy-peasy use of Everclear with roasted chopped nuts in a mason jar for a few months or so, no oil, no sheen, all good.

I'm a bit cautiously optimistic, however.

Oil and water are not miscible, but oil and alcohol are, as are alcohol and water (as I understand it because of the polarity of molecules). But these are just solutions and not chemical changes in the nature of the ingredients. To that end, the amount of miscibility of oil in alcohol [extract] placed into a water solution [wine] should depend on the concentration of each (water and alcohol). No?

My thought is that the oil will simply stay in solution in the alcohol until diluted with enough water, when it will then come out of solution.

Sounds like it's time for an experiment.
 

BigDaveK

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2022
Messages
1,881
Reaction score
3,370
Location
Hocking Hills, OH
I've only made hazelnut extract so my experience is limited. I filled a jar with the nuts and then added 100 proof vodka just until they were covered. So, the amount of nuts was considerable. I never saw a hint of oil so whatever was there was in the solution.
 

sour_grapes

Victim of the Invasion of the Avatar Snatchers
Joined
Sep 19, 2013
Messages
14,154
Reaction score
16,561
Location
near Milwaukee
Oil and water are not miscible, but oil and alcohol are, as are alcohol and water (as I understand it because of the polarity of molecules). But these are just solutions and not chemical changes in the nature of the ingredients. To that end, the amount of miscibility of oil in alcohol [extract] placed into a water solution [wine] should depend on the concentration of each (water and alcohol). No?

My thought is that the oil will simply stay in solution in the alcohol until diluted with enough water, when it will then come out of solution.

Correct. This is known as the "Ouzo effect" or the "Pastis Effect." Ouzo effect - Wikipedia
 

David Violante

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2020
Messages
737
Reaction score
841
Location
New York
Paul, thank you… very interesting... so it appears quite stable. I’m interested if there is any taste difference, between two versions, oil in and not so much oil in. Or if it’s perceptible at all. I’ll add a reason, for context. I’m working at reducing cholesterol and oils. This is another interesting application of science and process that potentially has two different outcomes. One with oil scavenged out and another with it dissolved in. I’m curious about the taste difference.
 

Raptor99

Fruit Wine Alchemist
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2020
Messages
665
Reaction score
1,046
Location
Oregon
I think that the implication of this is that the oil could come out of solution when adding extracts. But when fermenting something containing oil, a certain amount of oil will be held in solution by the alcohol. As long as the ABV does not go down, it should stay in solution, right? In that case the only remaining issue is to skim off or remove the excess oil that is not held in solution.
 

sour_grapes

Victim of the Invasion of the Avatar Snatchers
Joined
Sep 19, 2013
Messages
14,154
Reaction score
16,561
Location
near Milwaukee
Paul, thank you… very interesting... so it appears quite stable. I’m interested if there is any taste difference, between two versions, oil in and not so much oil in. Or if it’s perceptible at all. I’ll add a reason, for context. I’m working at reducing cholesterol and oils. This is another interesting application of science and process that potentially has two different outcomes. One with oil scavenged out and another with it dissolved in. I’m curious about the taste difference.

Wait! Don't you want to discuss the optical effects? Such as Mie scattering , the Tyndall effect, and/or opalescence? :)
 

Rice_Guy

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
3,212
Reaction score
4,296
Location
Food Industry - - Retired
There was a lot of oil in the pecan wine, which I would like to try to avoid in a finished product. I think I remember reading that in the extraction method there was no fuss or muss, easy-peasy use of Everclear with roasted chopped nuts in a mason jar for a few months or so, no oil, no sheen, all good.
* solubility of oil in a solvent will reach some steady state K, when the solvent system (miscella) is at that point any additional oil in the nut will remain in the nut. Particle size of the chop will slow extraction, and in an extraction plant the soybean meat is typically flaked to speed extraction into the solvent. ,,, increasing temperature increases K. ,,, For comparison finished soybean meal off the hexane extractor (a good solvent) would test at .1 to .4% residual fat in the lab.
* an interesting fermentation process with peanuts is to boil the whole nut in water for a shift (4 to six hours). The oil extraction K is reduced since one is working with water and the filtering of whole peanut is relatively easy. Yes some scum will occur but if chilled after boiling it sets up and is easier to skim off the surface. Flavor extraction is good.
 

David Violante

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2020
Messages
737
Reaction score
841
Location
New York
I think that the implication of this is that the oil could come out of solution when adding extracts. But when fermenting something containing oil, a certain amount of oil will be held in solution by the alcohol. As long as the ABV does not go down, it should stay in solution, right? In that case the only remaining issue is to skim off or remove the excess oil that is not held in solution.
Yes, I think the 'solution' is to skim off what oil I can, when I can. However, I still would love to know if there's a small/imperceptible amount remaining, or a significant amount remaining. Now, more out of curiosity.

* solubility of oil in a solvent will reach some steady state K, when the solvent system (miscella) is at that point any additional oil in the nut will remain in the nut. Particle size of the chop will slow extraction, and in an extraction plant the soybean meat is typically flaked to speed extraction into the solvent. ,,, increasing temperature increases K. ,,, For comparison finished soybean meal off the hexane extractor (a good solvent) would test at .1 to .4% residual fat in the lab.
* an interesting fermentation process with peanuts is to boil the whole nut in water for a shift (4 to six hours). The oil extraction K is reduced since one is working with water and the filtering of whole peanut is relatively easy. Yes some scum will occur but if chilled after boiling it sets up and is easier to skim off the surface. Flavor extraction is good.
Is there a formula for "K"? If I have whole pecans it would take longer to reach K, and if I chop them up it will take less time, but at some point the solution will reach the particular density of the steady state. In regards to boiling / chilling / skimming, I don't think the same is true of pecan oil versus peanut oil but I am certainly not the expert. A quick search didn't yield anything other than smoke points.

There are now three components to the test!
1. Ferment with the pecans in the fermentation vessel and skim off the oil
2. Make an extraction and add to a fermentation of sugar water
3. Boil chopped pecans, skim off the oil scum, and use the water for fermenting
 

BigDaveK

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2022
Messages
1,881
Reaction score
3,370
Location
Hocking Hills, OH
I racked my hazelnut wine. A little disappointing - the hazelnut flavor went from first to maybe third, Back sweetening some leftover helped a lot. Still young, we'll see where it goes.
 

Raptor99

Fruit Wine Alchemist
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2020
Messages
665
Reaction score
1,046
Location
Oregon
Some of the flavor is in the oils, so to me it is good news that part of the oil will be held in solution by the alcohol. I wonder if adding a small amount of an emulsifier such as lecithin would help to retain more oil and therefore flavor in solution.
 
Top