Racking

[KCCam]

My understanding is never add sulfite while any type of fermentation is active because it hampers the fermenation.

I've seen people ask about it when transferring from primary to secondary. The confusion may come because some people leave everything in the primary until fermentation is complete and stable below 0.998. In this case racking into a carboy is not for secondary fermentation, and only for degassing and clearing, so K-meta (sulfite) is added, along with Sorbate to stabilize the wine. This is common with Skeeter Pee and Dragon Blood because they are fast fermenters and early drinkers. For grape wine, once all fermentation is complete, and the wine is in a carboy to bulk age, then it needs a little sulfite every so often, and racking is a good time to add it, especially since the racking operation itself will introduce some oxygen.

That's my understanding only... from reading, not from doing.

 

[Scooter68]

Thanks for everyone's input... I got it done!

Scooter68 - some people like to add a pinch whenever racking (or transferring) to counter any potential oxygen up-take... I just assumed that meant any racking operation... even during fermentation. Perhaps it is not necessary as the yeast may take it out themselves.

The accepted process is to use a measured amount, 1/4 teaspoon per 6 gallons, rather than a 'pinch' OR if you have the means to measure the SO2 levels in your wine you dose it accordingly.

BUT NEVER during fermentation. And the purpose is to maintain a steady SO2 level. Oxygen uptake during racking is rarely ever going threat to wine unless you leave too much head space or splash it around a lot. Even then "Splash Racking" is sometimes desirable. (See: How To Splash Rack Your Wine )

KCCam - You are correct - I would never mess with a fermentation in process by adding K-Meta. Some folks will add both K-meta and K-sorbate to stop a ferment but even that isn't a sure thing since it isn't instantaneously effective so you can only ball park what the SG will be when the ferment stops.
So essentially K-meta is used for 3 basic things and at specific times:
1) In strong concentration - to Sanitize container and equipment
2) At least 18-24 hours before starting a fermentation during the must preperation - To reduce bacteria and prevent/slow wild yeast from starting a ferment before a desired yeast is added
3) AFTER fermentation to prevent oxidation and provide the third part of the things that help preserve a wine(Alcohol, Acidity, SO2) While some folks do measure the dissolved SO2 content and add a specific amount of K-Meta, the most common approach is approximately every 3 months when racking the wine as it's being bulk aged. The final addition being done just before bottling to ensure that the wine is protected as it continues to age safely in the "Sealed" bottle.

 

[Bramble]

KCCam -Yes, this is a question about transferring... off the fruit remains. About mid way in the fementation process.
It seemed strange to me, but there is a tendency to follow rather than think sometimes.
Never the less, it did feel it odd and well, my popping up here is a reflection of that.

I think you mentioned an interesting point...

"...once all fermentation is complete, and the wine is in a carboy to bulk age, then it needs a little sulfite every so often, and racking is a good time to add it, especially since the racking operation itself will introduce some oxygen.

If one was not racking, would one want to still sulfite?
(or more to the point, is SO2 becomming ineffective over time in a closed bottle?)

Scooter68 -Thanks. Your ALL CAPS helps build confidence. I am still not completely converted, but to be clear, when you or "most people" transfer off of pulp at around 1.020, sulfiting isn't being done? Stuck here in my own small bubble so your vantage point is appreciated.

 

[KCCam]

but to be clear, when you or "most people" transfer off of pulp at around 1.020, sulfiting isn't being done?

Correct. Do not add sulfite (usually referred to as K-meta) at this point.

KCCam -Yes, this is a question about transferring... off the fruit remains. About mid way in the fementation process.

Do not add sulfite when racking off the “gross lees” (sediment at the bottom of the primary fermenter - what you are calling “fruit remains” or “pulp”) into the secondary fermenter (glass carboy).

If one was not racking, would one want to still sulfite?
(or more to the point, is SO2 becomming ineffective over time in a closed bottle?)

I’m not sure what you mean by “If one was not racking.” Or what you mean by “closed bottle.” If you mean a carboy with an air lock, that is not a closed bottle. The information already given in this thread is quite clear I think. I might be simplifying here, but sulfite is used for 3 reasons, and never while fermentation is occurring. 1) To sterilize equipment and containers. 2) Before fermentation begins - to kill bad stuff. 3) To prevent oxidation, both during bulk aging and before bottling. Bulk aging means leaving the wine in a carboy or barrel for several months or even years either under an air lock or sealed with a plug of some sort. Many chemical reactions occur during this time and SO2 will be consumed or dissipate slowly, requiring more to be added periodically. Once you bottle, you can’t add more, so you have to make sure enough is there to protect the wine for as long as it might have to be in the bottle. So if you are not bulk aging, then at this point you will only need to sulfite your fruit wine once - after fermentation is complete, in addition to Potassium Sorbate to stabilize, and likely a fining agent to speed up clearing. After a week or so, the wine should be clear, and you rack it (transfer it) to another carboy or bucket, leaving the sediment behind so you can bottle it without worrying about getting sediment in the bottles. Sulfite was added a week ago, so you don’t need more now. If it takes several weeks for the wine to clear, then you may need to add some more sulfite before bottling. If you are bulk aging, then you should rack and add sulfite periodically.

 

[Bramble]

I’m not sure what you mean by “If one was not racking.”

That was in response to what you said: "... it needs a little sulfite every so often, and racking is a good time to add it...." I was just wondering what was driving the need for more and more sulfite; is it only oxygen uptake or is there something else at play?

But I think you addresed this already in your last post. Thanks fo setting me straight. It will be easier not having to worry about it any more.

In a closed (not airlocked) bulk storage container, would (over time) supplemental sulfite still be in order?

 

[Scooter68]

In a word - Yes - periodically more K-Meta is added. Unless you are talking about a final container from which that wine will be consumed once opened. Since corks are porous to a small degree, over time wine can lose some of that protection and be subject to some oxidation. (VERY small but it does happen.) Of course other sealing materials like wax over cork etc can help eliminate that but most folks aren't going to that extent to seal AND most folks probably don't keep their wine that long. (Exceptions do happen but then if you are thinking of keeping certain bottle for long-term... you could add a wax seal too.)

For the most part I think the focus is on what additions are made when from Start to prep the wine must until the bottling time.
So for me... I do it this way
1) When I first crush or cut up the fruit 1/4 tsp K-Meta / 6 gallons - that kills off bacteria and stuns or forestalls wild/undesirable yeast starting a ferment. (Also the best time to add Pectic Enzyme to help break down fruit cells and free the flavors, sugars etc.)
2) When Fermentation is completely finished - 1/4 tsp K-Meta/6 gallons as I rack off the lees and begin the clearing an aging process
3) Every 3 months as I rack during the aging process - 1/4 tsp K-Meta/6 gallons

My normal aging time is 9-12 months (less with white/light fruit colored wine that take less time to age). More time with wines that are stubborn and refuse to clear completely even with fining agents.
And one final thing I try to do... since I back-sweeten virtually every wine I make to some degree - I add my last dosage of K-Meta along with K-Sorbate a couple of days to a week before I back-sweeten then wait one more week before bottling. The purpose here is to see if any cloudyness pops up or any additional sediment drops out. That doesn't guarantee that sediment won't surprise you after bottling but I consider that last little step a small preventative measure.

 

[Bramble]

Thanks - it is nice to see the overall flow of things.
One question, How much are you back sweetening, which kind of wines (and ABV's)
Does it make a day and night difference or is it more a fine tuning?

I don't usually backsweeten (but I do actually prefer sweeter wines).

Do you have some sort of system, or is it case by case?
Are there reccomendations for how much to backsweeten diferent wines, a chart or something?

(I guess my "one question" comes from an "alternate system" of counting things....)

 

[G259]

I think that it is a personal choice, I have taken the SG of commercial wines (Woodbridge), and the varietals came in from .995 (SB), to I think, 1.003 for a PG, most were around 1.000. However, as I learned here, adding acid blend can mask the ambient sugar in the wine (added too much sugar back-sweetening, was told to add acid, it worked!) I didn't test the acidity of each of these varietals however, that may be a future study (whoo hoo!) I try for 'around' 1.000 - .995, depending on the fruit used, I like mine a 'bit' drier, in general. Bench trials.

 

[Scooter68]

Keep in mind that all the wines I make are fruit based (Not Grape based) That alone changes things up a little. Virtually all fruit based wines are a bit better with a little back sweetening - it brings the fruit flavor forward. Some fruits seem weak on flavor until back sweetened - with blueberry that has certainly been true for me and others.

The amount of back sweetening is purely personal preference. The only thing that would influence that would be the ABV of a wine. That is, most Higher ABV fruit wines are too hot to enjoy without more sweetness - so with more sweetness than normal to cover that higher ABV it puts them into a Dessert Wine category. One advantage of the Dessert wine is that folks tend to drink a little less of that at a time.
BUT - in reality it's all purely personal preference and you will probably find that it varies from one fruit variety to another.

The numbers related to sweetness (SG measured after sweetening) don't matter as much as how it tastes to the maker. To one person with one wine they might consider a wine with an SG of 1.010 Sweet but due to the ABV and other factors (Tartness) it might not seem very sweet. Tart Cherry is a perfect example for me. I made a batch and the ABV was 14.5% and the SG was 1.014 BUT when tasting it the sweetness was mostly covered up by the Tartness and the ABV and you only got a sense for sweetness in the finish. Most of my wines seem to end up between 1.010 and 1.000 and I like sweeter wines. Keep in mind also that a wine that has an SG of .990 before you start sweetening might be fine at an SG of 1.000 where a wine with an SG of .998 before you sweeten might end up at 1.005 and seem no sweeter that the other.

The how and when of back sweetening is also purely personal, but; here is why I do it the way I do:
A new wine is sharper and harder to judge for me and the old 'rule-of-thumb' is that when back sweetening you should stop just short of perfect because as a wine matures that sweetness comes through more. So with that sharpness hitting my palate I find it harder to judge how much is enough.
So I prefer to wait until just before I bottle my wine to do the back-sweetening. That way the wine has normally lost that sharpness and my back sweetening is going to be more accurate for me. Also that means I don't' need to add the Potassium Sorbate as soon either because according to most common information Sorbate can age out and produce off flavors in some cases.
Again that's just my personal approach to it.

The actual method I use is very common/standard among most home wine makers.
I take a 8oz of wine and add a simple syrup (2:1 ration Sugar to Water) I use little plastic syringes and add about 5cc at a time until it's just about perfect. For a one gallon batch I then figure out the total amount added and multiply that times 15* for a one gallon batch and add to the wine so it's ready to bottle.

* (16 cups per gallon less the one cup I've already sweetened) So for a 3 gallon batch it would be the amount added times 47)

 

[DizzyIzzy]

The accepted process is to use a measured amount, 1/4 teaspoon per 6 gallons, rather than a 'pinch' OR if you have the means to measure the SO2 levels in your wine you dose it accordingly.

BUT NEVER during fermentation. And the purpose is to maintain a steady SO2 level. Oxygen uptake during racking is rarely ever going threat to wine unless you leave too much head space or splash it around a lot. Even then "Splash Racking" is sometimes desirable. (See: How To Splash Rack Your Wine )

KCCam - You are correct - I would never mess with a fermentation in process by adding K-Meta. Some folks will add both K-meta and K-sorbate to stop a ferment but even that isn't a sure thing since it isn't instantaneously effective so you can only ball park what the SG will be when the ferment stops.
So essentially K-meta is used for 3 basic things and at specific times:
1) In strong concentration - to Sanitize container and equipment
2) At least 18-24 hours before starting a fermentation during the must preperation - To reduce bacteria and prevent/slow wild yeast from starting a ferment before a desired yeast is added
3) AFTER fermentation to prevent oxidation and provide the third part of the things that help preserve a wine(Alcohol, Acidity, SO2) While some folks do measure the dissolved SO2 content and add a specific amount of K-Meta, the most common approach is approximately every 3 months when racking the wine as it's being bulk aged. The final addition being done just before bottling to ensure that the wine is protected as it continues to age safely in the "Sealed" bottle.

Good morning KC. I am somewhat confused? As to #2 above in your post, just what is done with the K-Meta 18-24 hours before starting a ferment?...............Dizzy

 

[Scooter68]

Good morning KC. I am somewhat confused? As to #2 above in your post, just what is done with the K-Meta 18-24 hours before starting a ferment?...............Dizzy

When you start a wine must from grapes, or fresh fruit you dose the batch with 1/4 tsp of K-meta per 6 gallons of wine must as soon as you add the grapes or fruit and crush them or immediately after you process them and add them to the fermentation container. That dose is to kill off any bacteria in the wine must and stun or retard any fermentation from wild yeasts. That dose should be allowed to be in there 18-24 hours before you attempt to start the fermentation with your desired yeast (yeast starter mix) so that it doesn't retard or prevent your yeast from working.
That step is NOT done with commercially prepared juices, juice pails, or kit wines unless their directions tell you to do so. Bottled juices have normally been pasteurized or treated during their preparation so if your containers are already sanitized there is no need to do the step 2 that I listed in my post.

 

[KCCam]

@Scooter68 , you have added some amazing, detailed, thoughtful, and complete information here. Thank you. This thread is one for your WMT binder, @DizzyIzzy!

 

[KCCam]

The actual method I use is very common/standard among most home wine makers.
I take a 8oz of wine and add a simple syrup (2:1 ration Sugar to Water) I use little plastic syringes and add about 5cc at a time until it's just about perfect. For a one gallon batch I then figure out the total amount added and multiply that times 15* for a one gallon batch and add to the wine so it's ready to bottle.

* (16 cups per gallon less the one cup I've already sweetened) So for a 3 gallon batch it would be the amount added times 47)

My personal method for the few Dragon Bloods I've done was to work out how much wine would be required to make a 1/4 tsp addition equivalent to 1/4 cup per gallon, which is how it is often stated.

So if you take 1/3 cup of wine (80 ml) and add 1/4 tsp sugar, that is the same as adding 1/4 cup per gallon. If you want to see what 3/4 cup per gallon tastes like, add 3/4 tsp sugar to 80 ml wine (or 3/8 to 40 ml). I can do that without a calculator. Hahaha.

40 ml fits nicely into a shot glass, so I put 40 ml each into 6 shot glasses and add 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8 and 3/4 tsp sugar to them. That corresponds to 1/4 cup to 1 1/2 cups per gallon. Now I can go back and forth between them to zero in on the one I like best.

 

[winemaker81]

Adding SO2 ahead of innoculation is not mandatory.

If it's a grape wine that will undergo malolactic fermentation, do not add sulfite as the malolactic bacteria does not like sulfite.

If the fruit is questionable in any way, do add sulfite. It may not help, but it won't hurt. For instance, if the fruit has been sitting without innoculation for more than a day, I'd add sulfite. To the best of my knowledge, most commercial yeasts are sulfite tolerant.

Other than that, adding sulfite is optional. Most commercial yeasts are bred to stamp out competitors, so wild yeasts will be killed when the commercial yeast is introduced. Adding or not adding sulfite prior to innoculation is wine maker's choice.