"Pure" elderberry wine?

[blumentopferde]

Hi!
I'm not quite sure wheter I'm in the right subforum for my question! Moderators, please move it to another subsection if you think so!

Elderberrys Are ripening around my home and I'm considering making elderberry wine from the european elderberry (Sambucus Nigra). I'd like to keep the wine as natural as possible, which means:

- I don't want to dilute the must with water
- I don't want to add any sugar
- I don't want to use any additives that influence the taste of the original fruit (no oak, tannins, juices etc.)

I do not hesitate to use dry yeast, yeast nutrients, pectic enzyme, sulfites and other preservatives if necessary though.

What I want is a wine that represents the fruit it is made of as much as possible.

Now all the wine making guides say:
You need a brix level higher than 22° and acidity levels between 6 and 10 g/l.

As far as I have read elderberries don't get much higher than 12 Brix (around 6,5vol% Alc), their pH-levels are supposed to be between 3,5 and 4,5 but acidity levels seem to vary a lot. I found figures between 0,9 and 2,5%!

So acidity levels might be a bit high, pH levels curiously seem high at the same time, but it might be possible to have the acidity levels within the limit. Sugar levels will be definitely too low though.

I want to evaluate the risks if I ignore this and still don't add any sugar.
Will I have trouble during fermentation? I once made cider, which had even lower Brix levels and didn't have any problems.

Will the stability be greatly reduced? Elderberry wine is said to require a long storage of about a year to reach its full potential. Can a wine with such alcohol levels make it that long? Are there stabilization methods to make it last that long? Or is there really no other way than adding sugar? If yes, how low can I go with the sugar levels without risking to lose the wine within a year?

And what could I do to get the acidity lower without adding water?

Anyone who's got experience on that? What are your thoughts?

 

[jamesngalveston]

you are a prime target for mountainjack..he is the elderberry king.
Im sure you will hear from him.....not much he does not know about those berrys.

 

[Julie]

You are correct that elderberry is best after a year. And you need to add sugar to bring the brix up, you need an ABV at least 10%. Not sure of the European version but elderberries are not high in acid, you normally would add some and it is really best if you backsweeten it some.

 

[blumentopferde]

Thanks for the input!

So there's no way to have it with low alcohol levels (I do enjoy low alcohol levels, they enable me to drink more ;-) )?

Oh, and I just stumbled over cold soaking! Anyone who's got experience with that? Does it really give a different result than just leaving the berries in the must a bit longer?

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

Dude, where in the world are you? I did grow some european elderberries for a couple of years but they never liked it at my home and didnt live very well or very long. Our Canadensis black American elderberries get to about 10 brix, not high enough for winemaking, but if you want to go cider style I dont see why not. As far as aging, thats a personal thing, we can enjoy ours much earlier than a year though it does get better as it ages. 100% juice is though, that is a strong one on elderberry taste, it can be done of course but you better already like elderberries. You could boost the alcohol a little with honey instead of sugar if you want to be more natural, elderberry meads are very good. If you go low alcohol like ciders, remember that the cider apples have tannins, more sugar and importantly higher acid levels than your elderberries. Not balancing these is probably going to give you a bland drink that might not keep for very long or it might be the next craze to hit winemaking, who knows WVMJ

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

Hey James, I found out this year that we have 2 spotted drosophilas that can completely wipe out an elderberry crop. We are mowing down half our berries to make the rows much wider so we can get a tractor in there to spray, you are not supposed to have to spray native fruits right?? WVMJ (elderberryless and not the king!)

you are a prime target for mountainjack..he is the elderberry king.
Im sure you will hear from him.....not much he does not know about those berrys.

 

[blumentopferde]

Thanks for your reply!

Dude, where in the world are you? I did grow some european elderberries for a couple of years but they never liked it at my home and didnt live very well or very long.

Austria, Europe. No American Elderberries there

Our Canadensis black American elderberries get to about 10 brix, not high enough for winemaking, but if you want to go cider style I dont see why not.

What do mean with "cyder style"? Just lower alcohol levels, as I considered, or are there more differences than that in the making?

As far as aging, thats a personal thing, we can enjoy ours much earlier than a year though it does get better as it ages. 100% juice is though, that is a strong one on elderberry taste, it can be done of course but you better already like elderberries.

Good to know! Well, I could mix it with water after fermentation, if I find the taste too intensive. But then I better have higher alcohol levels or it will turn from cider style into light beer style - without foam, carbon dioxide, the freshness and the bitterness, that make beer enjoyable

You could boost the alcohol a little with honey instead of sugar if you want to be more natural, elderberry meads are very good.

I'll keep the honey in mind! Don't want the honey to influence the taste too much though!

If you go low alcohol like ciders, remember that the cider apples have tannins, more sugar and importantly higher acid levels than your elderberries. Not balancing these is probably going to give you a bland drink that might not keep for very long or it might be the next craze to hit winemaking, who knows WVMJ

What are your experiences with the acid levels? The acid levels I found on the net all seemed quite high (more than 1%)!
I thought that elderberries were comparable to red grape varieties - lots of extracts, lots of tannins - and red wine is usually preferred with low acid levels! That's why I didn't consider adding acid to the must!

 

[blumentopferde]

Ahhh, just found your website!
I see that your acid levels are much lower. Well, obviously there will be no way around doing an acid test myself!

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

When you do your acid test, you can add some distilled water to the elderberry juice since you are measuring the mass of the TA and not its concentration with the acid test. Euro berries may be different then ours. I have seen people say our wild ones were high in acid, I suggest you do your own test and let us know. Have you ever tried elderberry juice on its own before? That might be a good idea before starting out. As far as the tannins, I think elders have more and easier to get out than grapes, they have much better color, the longer you leave them in the must the more astringent the wine gets. I think a lot of old recipies had people leaving the fruit in for a week or more, so much tannins were extracted that it might have taken a year or more to drink. You mentioned you made cider once, Brix was probably higher than the elderberries, acid also, if you made this before and it worked you could try it with your berries. I think your current desire for all natural is not matching up with the characteristics of the fruit to be sucessfull, you have to balance everything, elderberries were not built like grapes with a balance already in the juice. WVMJ

 

[blumentopferde]

I know elderberry juice. It is quite neutral in my opinion. Very dark, but not very sweet, not very acidic and it had much less aroma than i would have expected!

So how long would you ferment the pulp before you move the must into a second carboy? Or would you rather press the berries directly - like in your "Pressed Elderberry Juice Wine" recipe?

I did cider once and brix was actually quite low, acidity too. It was made from common apples, not cider apples. I added some sugar and lactic acid to "enhance" the must but still both values were quite low, not higher than I'd expect from a pure elderberry wine. Fermentation worked out fine and the must cleared up quickly and looked and smelt nice. But the cider tasted thin and acidic. Obviously the aromas of the apples weren't strong enough to compete with the lactic acid I added.

I won't make cider from these apples again, but if I did I wouldn't add anything any more. I'd rather have a thin an neutral cider than one that doesn't taste like apples any more!

Ok, you can't compare elderberries to apples. They sure have much more extraxt and aromas than the latter, and can sure take much more additives before losing theis character. But still I'd like to keep them as natural as possible - without producing an undrinkable wine, of course

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

One reason the juice doesnt have much character as you tasted it is due to the low acidity, you need some acid to balance the flavors. Add some lemon juice like the old timers did. I dont like to leave the pulp of any fruit wine in much longer than 3 days. I also crush and pectinase everything before they get into the must instead of letting the yeast do all that work, let them focus on fermenting. Good luck, you can either enhance the elderberry flavors with a little acid and honey or sugar, or have a nice flacid red juice to drink WVMJ

 

[blumentopferde]

Ok! Thanks for the hints!

I guess it's time to leave my hands from the keyboards and get tet them to work

 

[blumentopferde]

Had my first part of picking today and OMG I would have never expected how much work it is to get all the little stems and all the unripe berries out...

Obviously we had a bad year - it's almost freezing, elderberries are losing their leaves, but many berries aren't ripe yet. It's hard to find a cluster full of ripe berries...

So I wonder how bad it is if I leave some of the reddish berries and some of the stems in the must. How much will it affect the taste?

And I also wonder, how to get the juice out of them. An electric juicer with a rotating grater probably wouldn't be the best choice as it might crush the seeds and probably the berries are too small for that anyways. And I don't have a steam juicer...

Any suggestions?

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

Dude, go to my webpage, lots of elderberry tips on there summarized from lots of different people. A juicer is not needed, just squish them, if you can freeze them first before squishing. WVMJ

 

[blumentopferde]

Dude, go to my webpage, lots of elderberry tips on there summarized from lots of different people. A juicer is not needed, just squish them, if you can freeze them first before squishing. WVMJ

Thanks for all the information on your website! Was a great help, especially the videos you made!

Looking at the berries and how small and firm the are I'm just worried not to get any juice out by just squeezing them in a press bag! But hey, I don't have an alternative anyways!


update:
picking done, now the berries are in the freezer. I left a few little stems and red berries though, just didn't have the patience to pick all of them out.

my plan for this week:
I'd like to get fermentation started until the end of this week. I looked up a recipe - http://honest-food.net/2012/08/19/elderberry-wine-recipe/ - but I dismissed some steps in order to make the work process faster and smoother. Here's my modified recipe:

1. Crush the frozen berries, leave them in a plastic bag.
QUESTION: I wonder if crushing the frozen berries will lead to crushed seeds. Would it be better to crush them after defrosting?
2. Add K-Meta to the crushed berries
Q: should I wait until defrosting or could I add the K-meta to the frozen berries?
3. Let the berries defrost in the refridgerator over night
4. Add pectinase
5. 4 days of cold soaking (leaving the crushed fruits in the refigerator) pinching the bag daily.
Q: I'd like to replace maceration by cold soaking. This way I could save a lot of work and still get some tannin out of the pulp. Has anyone ever tried this? Will this work out?
6. Press the juice out and fill it into a carboy
7. Measure Sugar levels
8. Measure acid level
9. Add Lemon Juice until 0,6% acid content
10 . Add yeats and 50% of the yeast nutrients
11. Wait until fermentation kicks in
12. Add Honey, solved in water (target alcohol: 10%vol), and the rest of the yeast nutrients (I'd like to start with a low sugar level to boost fermentation)
13. Wait until fermentation stops
14. Wait a month for debris to settle
15. Frack wine into another carboy
16. Measure alcohol level
17. Add K-Meta
18. Add honey until desired sweetness
19. Wait if fermentation kicks in again, if yes repeat 14-17, if not continue with 20
20. Wait another month for debris to settle
21. Fill directly into bottles

Skipping the maceration would save a lot of work:
- I wouldn't have to press berries seperately before maceration for sugar and acid analysis.
- I could save one vessel that would have to be cleaned twice
- And I would protect the must from oxidation as it would reduce the air contact during maceration greatly

Alternatively I could start maceration in the plastic bag and press the berries as soon as the yeast kicks in (and the bag blows up).

What do you think about it?

 

[blumentopferde]

I'd like to pose a few questions again!
Maybe somebody knows an answer:

1. Should I wait until the berries are completely defrosted before I crush them (I'm afraid of crushing the seeds when berries are frozen)?
2. Has anyone ever tried to make wine out of uncooked elderberries? It seems quite unclear to me whether the fruit itself (without seeds and stems) is poisonous or not.
3. Did anyone ever try "cold soaking" - leaving the crushes berries in the refrigerator for several days. If yes, would you recommend it for elderberries?
4. Did anyone of you ever try to ferment in a freezer bag? I can't find a vessel of appropriate size for my small amount of elderberries and I consider leaving them in a bag with an airlock at the opening for fermentation.
5. How much juice do I get out of 2,5kg (5,5lb) elderberries?

Greets,
blumentopferde

 

[blumentopferde]

Short update:

"Cold Soaked" them for a few days, heated them up to 80°C for 20 minutes, pressed them, and fermented them with honey.

Fermentation kicked in very quickly and very strong. Took me just 3 days to get up to 12%Vol Alc.

I used pure elderberry Juice, lemon juice for higher acidity (7g/l) and Honey. No water added and I am not going to.

Now the wine is waiting for clarification, then it will be stabilized and sweetened...

 

[garymc]

I think you've ventured into uncharted territory with no water added. Keep posting your results. I'm very interested in elderberry wine. Did you get the green goo? It's a sticky, waxy resin that comes out of the elderberries. Detergent won't dissolve it. You have to use vegetable oil to dissolve it and then detergent to wash it off.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

Sorry to have missed your questions, most answere are on our website though. You can pick the berries, add them to a buchet of cold water and most of the unripe berries (they have a lower SG so they float) and little stems wash right over the top of the bucket if you are gentle enough and not stirring like a crazy person. Drain off water, freeze in plastic bags. Thaw in plastic bag or in primary bucket, smush with hands or a wine bottle, you would have to work very very hard to smash any seeds, they are small and tough. If you want add KM, then pectinase and then adjust your must with nutrients etc and ferment. These are such small berries that a cold soak really isnt needed, the tannins come out pretty easily, we normally only ferment on fruit about 3 days and then drain all must thru a fermentation bag into a secondary and let it continue.

This is not unchartered territory, this is no mans land, making it as a mead will get it drinkable sooner, a little sweet to enhance the fruit flavor, its going to be about the most strong tasting mead anyone could make unless they used buckwheat honey with elderberries.

GOOD LUCK, WVMJ

I'd like to pose a few questions again!
Maybe somebody knows an answer:

1. Should I wait until the berries are completely defrosted before I crush them (I'm afraid of crushing the seeds when berries are frozen)?
2. Has anyone ever tried to make wine out of uncooked elderberries? It seems quite unclear to me whether the fruit itself (without seeds and stems) is poisonous or not.
3. Did anyone ever try "cold soaking" - leaving the crushes berries in the refrigerator for several days. If yes, would you recommend it for elderberries?
4. Did anyone of you ever try to ferment in a freezer bag? I can't find a vessel of appropriate size for my small amount of elderberries and I consider leaving them in a bag with an airlock at the opening for fermentation.
5. How much juice do I get out of 2,5kg (5,5lb) elderberries?

Greets,
blumentopferde

 

[blumentopferde]

I think you've ventured into uncharted territory with no water added. Keep posting your results. I'm very interested in elderberry wine. Did you get the green goo? It's a sticky, waxy resin that comes out of the elderberries. Detergent won't dissolve it. You have to use vegetable oil to dissolve it and then detergent to wash it off.

I had some green stains, not necessarily goo, and they were easy to wash off. Well, at least in the carboy. It was quite hard to get it off the nylon press bag though...
Btw: What is vegetable oil? Never heard of that!

Sorry to have missed your questions, most answere are on our website though. You can pick the berries, add them to a buchet of cold water and most of the unripe berries (they have a lower SG so they float) and little stems wash right over the top of the bucket if you are gentle enough and not stirring like a crazy person. Drain off water, freeze in plastic bags. Thaw in plastic bag or in primary bucket, smush with hands or a wine bottle, you would have to work very very hard to smash any seeds, they are small and tough. If you want add KM, then pectinase and then adjust your must with nutrients etc and ferment. These are such small berries that a cold soak really isnt needed, the tannins come out pretty easily, we normally only ferment on fruit about 3 days and then drain all must thru a fermentation bag into a secondary and let it continue.

Did I get you right, that you don't cook the elderberries before fermentation? I've read very often that you'd have to cook them otherwise you'll get sick... :/

This is not unchartered territory, this is no mans land, making it as a mead will get it drinkable sooner, a little sweet to enhance the fruit flavor, its going to be about the most strong tasting mead anyone could make unless they used buckwheat honey with elderberries.

GOOD LUCK, WVMJ

I just don't like the idea of drinking "water wine", and as the acidity was low enough I didn't see the reason to thin it down...

I had a small sip of the unsweetened wine and it tasted okay! So I'm optimistic!