Planning for first from grapes wine

[hawkwing]

@hawking - I will give the same advice as previously. You are more likely to harm your wine with advanced technique than improve it. At least the first time. Carbonic maceration done commercially and done at home are two different things. Get a good first wine under your belt and then worry about advanced technique. Or, just break out a small amount of your main fermentation for a separate fermentation and a trial of say, carbonic (extended) maceration. Then do a taste test blind at 6 months and see what you like better.

I promise you will be super pleased with the Enzyme addition, and will likely find there is no reason to do more.

My understanding is that carbonic maceration and cold soaking are two different things. I didn’t think there would be a danger to cold soaking and that it would add to the flavor. I’m easy either way but I’m not afraid to try the cold soaking especially if there is some benefit.

 

[hawkwing]

Definitely no -- do not open the container. The process works because the wine continues to emit CO2, which pushes the air out through the airlock. This provides a cushion to protect the wine during EM. If you open the container, the wine loses protection and is subject to oxidation.

Color, flavor, and aroma are extracted from the must during the first 2 to 5 days of fermentation, then the rate drops off dramatically. I found several sources that said the same thing. OTOH, tannin continues to extract over a longer period -- weeks or even months.

In Burgundy, EM last up to 90 days, producing a long aging wine. This is great if you want to wait 5 to 10 years to drink the wine.

Sources in the USA state the tannin mellow over an extended period (let's say 8 weeks), so initially harsh tannins soften, and folks on this forum back that up. However, I'm cautious in jumping on the EM bandwagon (or any bandwagon for that matter).

During a 2 week fermentation period the wine completes fermentation and the gross lees (grape solids) drop, and there is a short EM, pulling some tannin from the skins and seeds. Note that FWK does the same process for whites, where the fermentation simply completes.

IME so far, this enables me to cut a racking out of my process, since I'm not racking right after fermentation and then racking again in 1 to 3 weeks.

I agree with @CDrew, in that it's not necessary to throw the kitchen sink into winemaking. For reds I add fermentation (medium toast shredded) oak and ColorPro, which extracts great color, flavor, and aroma, and maintains the color. I use aging oak for flavoring, but generally don't do anything else, as I don't feel the need.

Note that there's nothing wrong with trying every technique, but IMO there are diminishing returns. Keep it simple.

So you only do punch downs for the first 5 days or so then seal it up?

How does one decide when they are happy with the maceration time without opening for a sample?

I have co2 so if I opened it I could give it a bit of a co2 blanket.

 

[winemaker81]

So you only do punch downs for the first 5 days or so then seal it up?

Yes.

How does one decide when they are happy with the maceration time without opening for a sample?

You either guess or use experience as a judge.

I have co2 so if I opened it I could give it a bit of a co2 blanket.

This may or may not work. EM works as the CO2 bubbles out of the wine, pushing air out the airlock. Note that gases mix rapidly, so this effect works because the CO2 coming out of the wine forces air at the top of the container out. Blasting CO2 in may - or may not - displace the air sufficiently. There is no way to ensure that the wine is protected.

The process for EM indicates sealing the container and not opening it. Your call on trying a different process.

 

[hawkwing]

Yes.


You either guess or use experience as a judge.


This may or may not work. EM works as the CO2 bubbles out of the wine, pushing air out the airlock. Note that gases mix rapidly, so this effect works because the CO2 coming out of the wine forces air at the top of the container out. Blasting CO2 in may - or may not - displace the air sufficiently. There is no way to ensure that the wine is protected.

The process for EM indicates sealing the container and not opening it. Your call on trying a different process.

You mentioned airlock but I was envisioning this extended maceration taking place in the primary fermenter?

 

[winemaker81]

You mentioned airlock but I was envisioning this extended maceration taking place in the primary fermenter?

For kits, most folks use 7.9 gallon fermenters with a locking lid, drilled for a #3 stopper + airlock. If using something else, you need to figure a way to seal the container with an airlock-type device to let excess CO2 out.

 

[hawkwing]

Im

For kits, most folks use 7.9 gallon fermenters with a locking lid, drilled for a #3 stopper + airlock. If using something else, you need to figure a way to seal the container with an airlock-type device to let excess CO2 out.

I’m confused because I’m not making kit wine. I’m getting 540lbs of grapes.

I don’t see how maceration for a juice kit makes any sense?

 

[winemaker81]

I’m confused because I’m not making kit wine. I’m getting 540lbs of grapes.

I don’t see how maceration for a juice kit makes any sense?

That's where "If using something else, you need to figure a way to seal the container with an airlock-type device to let excess CO2 out." comes into play.

EM requires a primary that has the ability to be sealed. I'm thinking about how to do that with a 32 gallon Brute -- current idea is plastic over the top held in place with stretch cords.

It's feasible to let the wine ferment dry, give it a day more (it's still emitting a lot of CO2), then press.

 

[CDrew]

My understanding is that carbonic maceration and cold soaking are two different things. I didn’t think there would be a danger to cold soaking and that it would add to the flavor. I’m easy either way but I’m not afraid to try the cold soaking especially if there is some benefit.

Of course, this is my understanding too. But either has risks. A cold soak unless truly cold, risks bacterial spoilage, and an extended maceration risks oxidation. Wineries can mitigate both. Much harder to do without chillers, nitrogen systems and the like. Either way, with 540 pounds of grapes, you are going to have your hands full. Good luck and report progress.

 

[hawkwing]

That's where "If using something else, you need to figure a way to seal the container with an airlock-type device to let excess CO2 out." comes into play.

EM requires a primary that has the ability to be sealed. I'm thinking about how to do that with a 32 gallon Brute -- current idea is plastic over the top held in place with stretch cords.

It's feasible to let the wine ferment dry, give it a day more (it's still emitting a lot of CO2), then press.

Well wouldn’t just putting the lid on be about the same thing and plastic and bungee cords?

 

[hawkwing]

Of course, this is my understanding too. But either has risks. A cold soak unless truly cold, risks bacterial spoilage, and an extended maceration risks oxidation. Wineries can mitigate both. Much harder to do without chillers, nitrogen systems and the like. Either way, with 540 pounds of grapes, you are going to have your hands full. Good luck and report progress.

Ha ha yup going to be busy. Getting the first 6 lugs likely Wednesday afternoon or Thursday morning. He’s putting them in the cooler until I get home. Then Monday morning for the rest.

I could get some ice and double bag at first and can get dry ice Monday. I only want to get dry ice once as there is a premium initial charge. It’s $25 for the first 2 kg. Then 6-7 for each additional. I might fill my Sodastream bottles at the same time.

 

[winemaker81]

Of course, this is my understanding too. But either has risks. A cold soak unless truly cold, risks bacterial spoilage, and an extended maceration risks oxidation. Wineries can mitigate both. Much harder to do without chillers, nitrogen systems and the like. Either way, with 540 pounds of grapes, you are going to have your hands full. Good luck and report progress.

Emphasis mine. @CDrew hit the nail squarely on the head. If the winemaker has the correct tools, anything is possible. However, most of us don't.

Well wouldn’t just putting the lid on be about the same thing and plastic and bungee cords?

It's not a tight seal. Once the wine stops emitting CO2, O2 can get in. It's like leaving the stopper out of the carboy, except with a LOT more surface area to expose the wine.

 

[hawkwing]

I’ll see what I can figure. I don’t want to cut holes in my lids or put grapes in a demijohn. Seems like a pain in the butt to get out.

I do have some pails that I put a stopper in the lid. One lid cracked so I don’t want to do anymore. Maybe I’ll just do a sample in one pail to see.

One way or another I’m making wine from grapes.

 

[winemaker81]

I’ll see what I can figure.

The easiest course of action is to not try EM. It's not a fit for your current situation.

 

[hawkwing]

The easiest course of action is to not try EM. It's not a fit for your current situation.

I think I have a solution that could work but another reason came to mind that might be an issue I don’t have the proper storage conditions for long term aging. So making a wine that requires long aging when for most of the year I only have room temperature or slightly warmer storage may not be the best.

 

[winemaker81]

I think I have a solution that could work but another reason came to mind that might be an issue I don’t have the proper storage conditions for long term aging. So making a wine that requires long aging when for most of the year I only have room temperature or slightly warmer storage may not be the best.

Cellar management is critical for most folks. While some folks on the forum have huge bottle storage space, most of us are limited. I'm near the limit of what I can store and literally need to drink or give away more wine to make storage. It's great you're looking forward, as it will avoid that, "OMG! Where am I going to put this????"

 

[hawkwing]

Cellar management is critical for most folks. While some folks on the forum have huge bottle storage space, most of us are limited. I'm near the limit of what I can store and literally need to drink or give away more wine to make storage. It's great you're looking forward, as it will avoid that, "OMG! Where am I going to put this????"

Ha ha I’m already in the OMG where am I going to put this space lol. I figured I’ll leave in carboys and only bottle one or two at a time.

 

[hawkwing]

I just finished my first crush day. I got 2 Cab, 4 Zin, and he ended up having 1 Alicante and 1/2 a Muscat. It took me about 6 hours to crush and destem which most of that was destemming. He loaned me a small crusher which helped a lot.

I added potassium metabisulfite and the EX-V enzyme. I was surprised at how little the instructions say to add. It must be super concentrated. That jar would last my lifetime if it didn't expire.

According to my refractometer the Zinfandel SG was 1.101, the cab 1.099 and the Alicante and Muscat were 1.080. I'll test with a hydrometer tomorrow and adjust. The acid can wait until tomorrow too.

 

[hawkwing]

Ok so I have measured everything and added some tartaric acid. The Zinfandel pH is a bit high but the TA is at 0.6%. Should I make any adjustments or leave it for now?

Zin
Hydrometer SG 1.112
pH 3.87
TA 0.6%

Cab
Hydrometer SG 1.112
pH 3.52
TA 0.6%

Alicante
Hydrometer SG 1.093
pH 3.48
TA 0.6%

Muscat
Hydrometer SG 1.092
pH 3.47
TA 0.7%

 

[hawkwing]

Oh I forgot a couple other questions. Should I just use the Avante yeast on the muscat or just go with 1118?

The grapes were in a cooler so I double bagged some ice and kept the zin and cab cold like around 12C. Wrapped in a blanket. I figure I can safely get 2 days of cold soak. I’ll likely pitch tomorrow.

 

[CDrew]

Good numbers overall. I would add at least 1g/L of tartaric(and maybe 2g/L) to your Zinfandel, but I've become pretty fearless about acid additions. Good work running all the labs. That represents a lot of work.