Pinot Noir Optimal numbers

[ceeaton]

I have a Chilean Pinot Noir Juice bucket that measures pH 3.69, TA 3.5g/L, SG 1.085. I have never made wine from this variety of grape before and I have 18 lbs of grapes stewing in Lallzyme EX-V at the moment, in a separate container (ie. the numbers are without the grapes being added yet). Planning on using RC 212 for my yeast.

What would you aim for if I did an acid adjustment? All I know is that it is a lower tannin wine that uses acidity to enhance the layers of flavors, in a good one. Should I key in on a pH or the TA? Also had planned on doing MLF, but with these low TA should I just skip that step (and use my MLF bacteria in the fall)?

Thanks for any suggestions!

 

[Johnd]

I have a Chilean Pinot Noir Juice bucket that measures pH 3.69, TA 3.5g/L, SG 1.085. I have never made wine from this variety of grape before and I have 18 lbs of grapes stewing in Lallzyme EX-V at the moment, in a separate container (ie. the numbers are without the grapes being added yet). Planning on using RC 212 for my yeast.

What would you aim for if I did an acid adjustment? All I know is that it is a lower tannin wine that uses acidity to enhance the layers of flavors, in a good one. Should I key in on a pH or the TA? Also had planned on doing MLF, but with these low TA should I just skip that step (and use my MLF bacteria in the fall)?

Thanks for any suggestions!

Let me first say that I don't know the specific answer to your quesrion, but I did what I would do were it my challenge, research. Check out this site, lots of the Pinots have their TA and Ph listed, you can get an idea of the range in these wines, and they have rating numbers as well. Hope that you can glean some insight here Craig.

http://www.princeofpinot.com/article/1706/

 

[ceeaton]

Let me first say that I don't know the specific answer to your quesrion, but I did what I would do were it my challenge, research. Check out this site, lots of the Pinots have their TA and Ph listed, you can get an idea of the range in these wines, and they have rating numbers as well. Hope that you can glean some insight here Craig.

http://www.princeofpinot.com/article/1706/

That is a good idea John. I started doing it but have been "pulled away" several times and have issues spending any time on the computer so far today. Plan on spending extensive time this evening. I've seen some numbers with a bit lower pH, but wonder what the fresh grapes are going to do in a few days. I'm planning on taking a pH and TA reading tomorrow afternoon and going from there. I just pitched the yeast and added the fresh grapes to the juice bucket after transferring to my 20 gallon brute trashcan (fermenter of choice).

 

[JohnT]

pH 3.69, TA 3.5g/L,

How sure are you of those numbers? The PH is low, but the TA number looks way, way, way low. I would recommend that you first check the age of your TA testing chemicals and retest the TA to be sure.

 

[ceeaton]

How sure are you of those numbers? The PH is low, but the TA number looks way, way, way low. I would recommend that you first check the age of your TA testing chemicals and retest the TA to be sure.

That is with new solution I bought on Saturday.

Edit: have noted in the past when the Sodium Hydroxide solution goes "bad", it tends to give a higher TA number since the strength of the reagent isn't as potent. Now LD Carlson has had issues in the past with their 0.2N solution, I'd love to find a source for the powedered stuff and make up small batches of my own normal solution as I need them.

 

[ibglowin]

Thats really close to an ideal pre ferment pH. So close you could let it ride and tweak it a little post ferment. Your pH will more than likely drop with AF. MLB like a higher pH so there's that. My $0.02 would be to let er ride.

 

[Vinotx]

Do you think you can cold stabilize your wine? I usually go for a TA of 5-6 g/L at fermentation so I wont have to mess with the TA later in the wines life. Plus an addition of 3.8 grams of Tartaric acid will lower your pH my .1 and also raises your TA by .1 g/L. This can get you in that optimal pH range for Pinot Noir ( and MLF ) which typically has a lower pH at harvest and a higher TA. Later on if you cold stabilize the TA will lower but the pH might come back or raise more to its old place. Most Cali pH's of their Pinots are in the 3.4-3.5 range so you have a good amount of wiggle room. Hope that answers your question! Most of the Pinot Noirs I have worked on were meant for dryer sparkling style but thats my ten cents.

 

[ceeaton]

Do you think you can cold stabilize your wine? I usually go for a TA of 5-6 g/L at fermentation so I wont have to mess with the TA later in the wines life. Plus an addition of 3.8 grams of Tartaric acid will lower your pH my .1 and also raises your TA by .1 g/L. This can get you in that optimal pH range for Pinot Noir ( and MLF ) which typically has a lower pH at harvest and a higher TA. Later on if you cold stabilize the TA will lower but the pH might come back or raise more to its old place. Most Cali pH's of their Pinots are in the 3.4-3.5 range so you have a good amount of wiggle room. Hope that answers your question! Most of the Pinot Noirs I have worked on were meant for dryer sparkling style but thats my ten cents.

I'll be able to cold stabilize in November or December around these parts, depending on the fall. At this point I'm fermenting, so I'm not going to mess with it. After MLF I'll have to post here and see what all you experts can do to help me get a good Pinot Noir. But like any wine, it is all about the raw materials, and some years the materials are better than others. If I can just make a pleasant wine out of this batch that would be great. I think I've only sunk about $110 into this, and that includes the MLF bacteria, yeast and paint strainer bag, for what should be about 7 gallons finished.

 

[Vinotx]

I'll be able to cold stabilize in November or December around these parts, depending on the fall. At this point I'm fermenting, so I'm not going to mess with it. After MLF I'll have to post here and see what all you experts can do to help me get a good Pinot Noir. But like any wine, it is all about the raw materials, and some years the materials are better than others. If I can just make a pleasant wine out of this batch that would be great. I think I've only sunk about $110 into this, and that includes the MLF bacteria, yeast and paint strainer bag, for what should be about 7 gallons finished.

Ill be looking forward to how it comes out! Keep us posted!

 

[ceeaton]

Sorry, forgot about this post. I did adjust the PN with 22 grams of tartaric acid. My post fermentation pH was 3.33. I used CH 35 and didn't get movement for quite some time, but I was lazy and wasn't regularly stirring it. Once I started a regular stirring regiment (every two days) the wine showed progress as far as the malic acid being reduced. Below was a chromo test from about a week ago. The 6 gallon carboy is the PN1 column.

I got a 6 gallon + 4 L bottle (PN2) from the initial racking, but a film showed up in the 4L bottle, so I added Kmeta, and when a sample was taken for the latest chromography, it was starting to show an orange tinge and was also lighter in color, so I wondered about possible oxidation from a loose bung. I plan on watering the garden with that bottle as to not ruin what I have in the larger carboy. The larger carboy tastes fine, the smaller one not so fine.

I started testing the wine tonight, to check the pH and TA, but the TA checked at over 11 g/L, which I know is out of line with earlier tests, even after adding the tartaric acid. So once again my "normal" solution isn't normal, even after storing in an airtight bag in my fridge since this Spring when I purchased it. I did purchase new pH 4.01 and 7.01 solution, and my old solution tests within .01 of the new ones. My pH is 3.35, but I'm bummed that my Sodium Hydroxide solution is spent.

Will post when I can get some real solution (now on "school time", can't get to the LHBS until Saturday, looking to order it online so I can get it by Thursday, if possible, without paying 4x as much for shipping as the solution).

 

[Johnd]

At least the Pinot and the Dorn are looking pretty good. I bet they've both smoothed out nicely. Just finished stirring the MLF Chileans, they are smelling better, that green smell is nearly gone.

 

[ceeaton]

The PN was better than I expected. Once I get the new solution and can get a TA reading I will rack and degass a bit. Plan on oaking it for awhile, just haven't figured out how much and how long.

The Dornfelder is getting smoother. The bell pepperish taste is slowly leaving. I gave a 375 ml tasters worth to @jgmann67 from a racking I did before I visited his place. I want him to try it and suggest whether I bottle or oak it up a bit more.

 

[ceeaton]

Got the new Normal solution on Saturday, finally got 5 minutes to test the PN today. pH was 3.34, TA was 7.5 g/L, a bit higher than I expected. The taste is pretty darn good, even with the CO2 in the background, so I'm leaving it be, adding the Kmeta and racking it tomorrow morning while waiting around for my daughters bus at 8:20 am.

Did notice a very nice oak aroma from the 15 ml of wine in my petri dish. Was thinking of adding more, but after smelling that will let it be, don't want to throw this one too much out of balance, as most Pinot's don't tolerate excessive oak.

 

[ceeaton]

I guess I've forgotten about this post, again. The wine about 21 months old (in a week) so I took the opportunity to tip the carboy as I haven't sampled this one in quite some time. It is due for a three month racking and Kmeta addition in a day or two. There is definitely some oak in the nose (added a French M+ spiral about 16 months ago) but not enough to overwhelm the nice bouquet of subtle raspberry and maybe some plum. Definitely plum in the background flavor, but not a heavy plum but a very "bright" tasting wine overall. My senses may have been compromised by the somewhat bitter pale ale I've been drinking this evening. Checked the pH and it still is hanging at 3.40. I don't think there is much CO2 left in this one, but I do get a rougher acidic taste on the sides of the tongue, so I guess I have to go to work and check the TA Sunday when I plan to rack this one. In general I'm pretty pleased, will be interesting how it changes once I get it into the bottle.

 

[Boatboy24]

Your pH may be a little low and that might be where you're getting that 'rougher acidic taste'. I'd say try it again today (when you haven't been consuming pale ale). Aside from that, it sounds very good the way you're describing it.

 

[ceeaton]

Your pH may be a little low and that might be where you're getting that 'rougher acidic taste'. I'd say try it again today (when you haven't been consuming pale ale). Aside from that, it sounds very good the way you're describing it.

That means I'd have to try it about right now. Finished with the coffee for the day and I'm mashing 9 1/2 lbs of grain in my Igloo cooler as I type this, once I mash out and start sparging I usually start pouring the beer! I don't have to drive anywhere today since I got up at 5 am to take my daughter to work, which means my wife has to pick her up. I do need to get some in a bottle and to the thumb over the top/shake test. It could be CO2 as it rarely gets above 68*F in my basement, it's 55*F right now. Guess I could get off my lazy butt and take the carboy upstairs to start warming it up. That would help the AIO racking remove a bit more CO2 if it's still in there.

 

[Boatboy24]

That wine is almost two years old. I'be be surprised if there were still CO2 in there, but I guess its possible.

 

[ceeaton]

It's never been above 70*F, except when it was initially fermented. You've had a few of my wines that had a little fizz to them still, that's why I got the AIO, but the wine needs to be warmer if it is to remove the most CO2 possible.

I did get off my butt and move the carboy upstairs where it is a bit warmer. Now I'm tired, maybe I should have a beer?

Edit: Sampled some of the Pinot Noir (before any beer) while I was topping up some other wines. I have to make sure in the future I do my tasting before my hoppy beer drinking, a much different, and better tasting wine. The Dornfelder that I opened to top up a few dark reds (Syrah and Zin) was the best I've tasted of that one so far, rough edges smoothing out nicely!