RickD
Senior Member
I found this chart for grape wines. I've been looking for a similar scale for non-grape wines. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Thanks!
Thanks!
pH Scales for Fruit/Non-grape Wines
- Thread starter RickD
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Scooter68
Fruit "Wine" Maker
It may exist but I would expect it to be rather complicated or huge due to the sheer number fruits that could be listed.
if you use juices, there is one but not sure if this exactly what you are looking for but this is what I use.
https://www.sheltondentistry.com/patient-information/ph-values-common-drinks/
https://www.sheltondentistry.com/patient-information/ph-values-common-drinks/
Fruits come in two types called climacteric and non climacteric. Translated some fruit as banana and apple continue to ripen while others as grapes and strawberries are finished the minute they are picked. Typically pH and TA decrease in fruits that can continue ripening. Grapes are available from a variety of growth/ seasonal variations/ pick dates so it is hard to say what a specific crop will be. . . . generalizations need to be taken with a grain of salt! Testing your crop is the only way to give a clean answer.
If you are wondering about a specific crop I could give suggestions
If you are wondering about a specific crop I could give suggestions
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Scooter68
Fruit "Wine" Maker
Your site link came up "Unavailable" last night and tonight.
RickD
Senior Member
Thanks, Granrey!! This helps a lot!!
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One thing that should probably be pointed out, your fruit may not have the ph values quoted above and they may be really, really far off. Grapes are a perfect example. Sometimes the grapes can have a Ph of 2.8 and next year have a ph of 4.2, coming from the same vineyard, just the growing conditions were different. Even with these charts, you really need to measure your fruit.
If you don't have one, a good ph meter is a valuable asset. Takes all the guess work out of it. I know that your wanting a chart to go by but as @cmason1957 said, the ph value of all fruits and grapes change with every harvest season. I have been making country wines for many years and since I have had my ph meter, I always shoot for a ph between 3.2 and 3.5. No matter what the wine is. I have never had a problem.
Just food for thought and my opinion for what it's worth.
So don’t over think it!
Just food for thought and my opinion for what it's worth.
So don’t over think it!
Scooter68
Fruit "Wine" Maker
I could not imagine trying to do any sort of good wine making without a pH meter or a learned ability to pretty accurately judge the acidity of a wine. Even a TA test is just SO much easier with a pH meter.
As cmason1957 says the pH of fruit can vary from year to year, even if it's from the same source in your own yard, conditions can change the acidity and it's not worth time to refer to a chart when the ACTUAL number is so easy to find. The only reason to use that chart is to know a wide ranging ball park of what to expect, even then you still have to test in some way to get it right.
There is no subsitute for putting in the time and effort to make wine with the tried and true practices and essential equipment to do so. Cutting corners to save time, or money, or effort, well; if it really worked for others, guess what? That info would be available right here on this forum. It's nice to explore the options but keep in mind that many thousands of fol(Probably millions), around the the world, make wine every year including commercial wineries and you can be sure if there was a sure fire shortcut, THEY would be implementing it. A chart of acid content can at best tell you how much adjustment your might need to do. When it come down to it, that pH meter or TA test process will give you the REAL answer.
As cmason1957 says the pH of fruit can vary from year to year, even if it's from the same source in your own yard, conditions can change the acidity and it's not worth time to refer to a chart when the ACTUAL number is so easy to find. The only reason to use that chart is to know a wide ranging ball park of what to expect, even then you still have to test in some way to get it right.
There is no subsitute for putting in the time and effort to make wine with the tried and true practices and essential equipment to do so. Cutting corners to save time, or money, or effort, well; if it really worked for others, guess what? That info would be available right here on this forum. It's nice to explore the options but keep in mind that many thousands of fol(Probably millions), around the the world, make wine every year including commercial wineries and you can be sure if there was a sure fire shortcut, THEY would be implementing it. A chart of acid content can at best tell you how much adjustment your might need to do. When it come down to it, that pH meter or TA test process will give you the REAL answer.
The composition on juices is very different than the actual grapes used for wine. The juices are a beberages they can alter or keep the same as they wish to make a profit.
On this study you can see the standard deviation was 0.01. Which means the results were consistant.
Meaning, the studies ran into different batches.
Also the values matches other studies by other investigators. On the samples mentioned, one that could be of interest was apple juice. There was no difference on this study compared to others.
Again, saying this. The manufacturer can change the drink all together without changing the name at all ans without telling you.
I think Coke, Pepsi used to taste very different from today's.
The other issue with testing is that the instruments tend not to be very accurate. I have struggled trying to buy one. Some of the best reviewed ones in amazon include people buying two of the same model and getting different values on the same liquid.
On this study you can see the standard deviation was 0.01. Which means the results were consistant.
Meaning, the studies ran into different batches.
Also the values matches other studies by other investigators. On the samples mentioned, one that could be of interest was apple juice. There was no difference on this study compared to others.
Again, saying this. The manufacturer can change the drink all together without changing the name at all ans without telling you.
I think Coke, Pepsi used to taste very different from today's.
The other issue with testing is that the instruments tend not to be very accurate. I have struggled trying to buy one. Some of the best reviewed ones in amazon include people buying two of the same model and getting different values on the same liquid.
Very interesting study.
You said that the study showed a standard deviation of 0.01. I did not see anywhere in what you posted that this was the case. (And I think that would be a remarkable result!) Could you please clarify?
Scooter68
Fruit "Wine" Maker
Product reviews on Amazon - Personally I trust them about as much as the car salesman at the local New Car lot. (That's a shade better than the Used car salesperson.) If you really read through reviews you are going to find reviews of totally different products, reviews by people with a hostile attitude and a variety of reasons you really have be pretty skeptical about them overall.
The way I evaluate product reviews is 1) How many reviewers (More than 50, More than 500, more than a thousand? More reviews provides a broader spectrum of purchasers - IF there an a bunch of unrelated reviews. 2) What percentage of reviews are 1 star and 2 star? Obviously if they are about the right product than anything over 10% -15% One or Two stars and there is likely to be a cause for concern. 3 This is the biggee for me - A consistent complaint. Screen fails, power button stops working or as you mentioned a bunch of claims of inaccurate readings.
So it still comes down to a leap of faith and recommendations by other users on forums like this. I try to keep in mind how complex an item is to use and in this case what does it take to calibrate the tool. My very first pH meter is still my favorite design. I had to manually turn a screw on it to set the reading to match the buffer I put it in. Auto calibration is fine but again if you don't follow the directions EXACTLY each time than results can get screwed up.
Finally how accurate does it really have to be. Do we need to worry about a difference of .05 or less? All the guidance I've seen gives recommended pH ranges in tenths not hundreths so if one meter says 3.41 and another says 3.47. Yeah I'll recheck but really that's in the ball park where I need to be. 3.4 vs 3.6 no, that's a fail.
The way I evaluate product reviews is 1) How many reviewers (More than 50, More than 500, more than a thousand? More reviews provides a broader spectrum of purchasers - IF there an a bunch of unrelated reviews. 2) What percentage of reviews are 1 star and 2 star? Obviously if they are about the right product than anything over 10% -15% One or Two stars and there is likely to be a cause for concern. 3 This is the biggee for me - A consistent complaint. Screen fails, power button stops working or as you mentioned a bunch of claims of inaccurate readings.
So it still comes down to a leap of faith and recommendations by other users on forums like this. I try to keep in mind how complex an item is to use and in this case what does it take to calibrate the tool. My very first pH meter is still my favorite design. I had to manually turn a screw on it to set the reading to match the buffer I put it in. Auto calibration is fine but again if you don't follow the directions EXACTLY each time than results can get screwed up.
Finally how accurate does it really have to be. Do we need to worry about a difference of .05 or less? All the guidance I've seen gives recommended pH ranges in tenths not hundreths so if one meter says 3.41 and another says 3.47. Yeah I'll recheck but really that's in the ball park where I need to be. 3.4 vs 3.6 no, that's a fail.
I agree it does not have to be that accurate but at the same time. There are many mixes known out there. Kind of like you dont have to reinvent the wheel.
For instance. Im testing different juices at the moment. I did a passion fruit one and it was a bit tart for my taste.
If you google the ph of passion fruit juice. You will get a range between 2.72 and 3.17. Lets say: 2.94
If you look at that table of juices. The best juices to blend it with would be Orange or Mango.
If you pick mango jumex the Ph is 3.41 (btw, I just drink tested my mango wine after two weeks fermentation and has not tart taste at all, all sweet)
Some ideal ph values for wine are around 3.3
We can do the math to determine the right proportion you need of both to get 3.3 of blended juice.
if you do the math. to get blended ph of 3.3 you will need 24% of passion juice and 76% of mango.
Then you can say. " am I the only idiot mixing mango and passion fruit?"
then you google it and you find people mixing smoothies wirh 33% passion fruit and 66% mango. Very close to the above calculation.
https://www.homemadezagat.com/2020/07/mango-passion-fruit-juice.html
This is another recipe of 66% orange with 33% passion fruit
https://www.justapinch.com/recipes/drink/smoothie/orange-passion-fruit-smoothie.html
In other words. There are many ways to figure this out.
The funny thing is these people might have figured out these recipes by trial and error rather than knowing PH values and the 3.3 ideal.
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YES!
From the point of view of taste, a panel member will change enough based on what they just ate or drank that I would ignore changes smaller than 0.1 pH unit and that still may be too small for most of the population to taste.
From the point of view of microbiological stability pH is one of a set of barriers, changing the percentage alcohol or the free SO2 or residual sugar or available nitrogen also changes where the pH barrier needs to be placed.
From a chemical point I could argue for 0.01 accurate pH however the expression calculates free SO2 so which is part of a combination of preservative factors so the accuracy wouldn’t matter.
From the point of view of taste, a panel member will change enough based on what they just ate or drank that I would ignore changes smaller than 0.1 pH unit and that still may be too small for most of the population to taste.
From the point of view of microbiological stability pH is one of a set of barriers, changing the percentage alcohol or the free SO2 or residual sugar or available nitrogen also changes where the pH barrier needs to be placed.
From a chemical point I could argue for 0.01 accurate pH however the expression calculates free SO2 so which is part of a combination of preservative factors so the accuracy wouldn’t matter.
your logic is good if you only look at synthetic clean chemical systems
* It is not as simple as one gram plus three grams average to two grams of pH, ,,,, yes industry frequently reinvents the wheel. The buffering capacity/ type of acid will vary from fruit to fruit. If literature for mango said it should have between 0.34 to 0.84 grams of citric (mostly) acid per 100 grams and my 2019 mango actually tested at 0.28 gram acid per 100 ml of juice I will need to add two or three times as much mango to contribute grams of buffering capacity to push the pH up or acid to push the pH down. Another variable is does the fruit contain a di-proton acid like malic or a triprotic acid like citric or mono proton acid like lactic. A term to look at is the “sugar free dry extract” and then ask what the chemical soup (buffering) is inside that extract. ,,,, a partial translation is that if the sugar/ ripeness (yeast fermentable) increases then the percentage of acid per ml goes down.
On the product development bench we will add citric acid as a fudge on the label to guarantee that we accomplish the micro or chemical rule which food and drug require us to follow.
* in the ideal world wine would be formulated with a stable pH around 2.4 like sodas, this provides a high level of preservative action. We have two problems which prevent ideal, 1) yeast don’t like to live below pH 3.0 and if they produce CO2 which drops the pH anything under 3.1 risks creating a stuck fermentation. 2) the crops as grape frequently have higher pH as white grape 3.4 or red grape 3.6 , , , which actually works better since the grape skin has natural antioxidants that reduce the need for adding chemicals.
* It is not as simple as one gram plus three grams average to two grams of pH, ,,,, yes industry frequently reinvents the wheel. The buffering capacity/ type of acid will vary from fruit to fruit. If literature for mango said it should have between 0.34 to 0.84 grams of citric (mostly) acid per 100 grams and my 2019 mango actually tested at 0.28 gram acid per 100 ml of juice I will need to add two or three times as much mango to contribute grams of buffering capacity to push the pH up or acid to push the pH down. Another variable is does the fruit contain a di-proton acid like malic or a triprotic acid like citric or mono proton acid like lactic. A term to look at is the “sugar free dry extract” and then ask what the chemical soup (buffering) is inside that extract. ,,,, a partial translation is that if the sugar/ ripeness (yeast fermentable) increases then the percentage of acid per ml goes down.
On the product development bench we will add citric acid as a fudge on the label to guarantee that we accomplish the micro or chemical rule which food and drug require us to follow.
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I don't think that's recreating the wheel but again this could be semantics.
You are adjusting based on a different PH targer value that you need and to the actual pH values of the products that you are using based on your tests.
At best, you are just adjusting but I would not call it reinventing.
Another example is juice containers show you the sugar concentration as on the box. You can make your recipe based on those values and adjust your quantities based on your test with hydrometer.
Same with the PH. you can use the PH from those tables above to make your recipe then adjust on actual values from PH tester.
