Pennsylvania winery question

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zadvocate

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Can a new winery in Pennsylvania purchase shiners from out of state, put their label on them, and sell them in Pennsylvania? I have seen this in person but wondering how it is legal. I have reviewed the regulations and it is not clear. Just wondering if anyone knows. I know that you may purchase grapes from out of state and make wine in Pennsylvania and sell.

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bkisel

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I don't know what the term "shiners" means but I have been to a winery in north central PA that has just a small amount of their own grapes and openly pointed out that they bought juice from the NY Finger Lakes Region to produce many of their offerings.
 

salcoco

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it is legal from a federal,standpoint based on prper labeling. not sure about state. may need to query your state board on this matter.
 

grapeman

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I know in NY as a farm winery you have to use only NY grown grapes in the wine. You would also have to buy NY produced shiners that were made from NY grapes. Some states that don't have as many grapes grown have a much more lax attitude and allow product from another state. Take for instance a Vermont winery can buy grapes from me 30 miles across the lake and make wine, but I cannot buy grapes from that winery and use them.
 

salcoco

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check your state law with regard to production of wine from your state and allowance for out of state. the Shriner would fall into the out of state category. consult other wineries in area they may be able to help.
 

zadvocate

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I have a inquired with the PLCB legal counsel that will clarify this hopefully. What I can learn from reading some opinions if a vineyard/winery is license in two states and one of them is PA a pa winery could buy from them. I'll let you all know when I find out
 

Hokapsig

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good luck, but my research has lead to a dead end that said NO
 

Hokapsig

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I know in NY as a farm winery you have to use only NY grown grapes in the wine. You would also have to buy NY produced shiners that were made from NY grapes. Some states that don't have as many grapes grown have a much more lax attitude and allow product from another state. Take for instance a Vermont winery can buy grapes from me 30 miles across the lake and make wine, but I cannot buy grapes from that winery and use them.

Does this mean that you can't do fruit wines in NY. but only grape???
 

Runningwolf

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NY wineries can do fruit wine. Pa wineries can not buy/sell shiners. However, a winery could sell you bulk wine, bottles and corks priced out seperately. That bulk wine price might be rather high though reflecting a bottling fee. Just saying.
 

zadvocate

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Runningwolf by winery are you referring to an out of state winery?
 

jgmann67

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I was running through the advisory opinions on the LCB website re: a related issue and came across this:

While the Liquor Code states that limited wineries may only produce wine made from Pennsylvania grown agricultural commodities, this limitation has been deemed unenforceable as a result of the U.S. Supreme Court decision in the case of Granholm v. Heald, 544 U.S. 460 (2005), and the Pennsylvania federal court decision in Cutner v. Newman, 398 F. Supp.2d 389 (E.D. Pa. 2005), both involving legislative distinctions between in-state and out-of-state wineries. Accordingly, a limited winery licensee is not required to produce its wine using fruit from sources in Pennsylvania; rather, it may utilize fruit from other sources, whether from Pennsylvania or outside of Pennsylvania, although actual wine purchases from other limited wineries for subsequent resale are limited to no more than fifty percent (50%) of the purchasing winery’s previous year’s production. Therefore, as the law presently stands, a licensed limited winery may produce wine from agricultural commodities without regard to the source of such commodities. Thus, you would be permitted to import and use fruits and/or juice from out-of-state.​

It reads like you can buy all the fruit and juice you want from other sources. But, actual wine from other limited wineries is limited to 50% of your production. Don't know if that helps.
 

zadvocate

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thank you, I did find that information. But I know there are wineries in PA that buy wine from out of state. The bottles will say produced and bottled in Napa. This may be under the 50% limitation. I wonder if a PA winery could buy grapes and have the wine made at a custom crush facility and what that would be considered.
 

Redbird1

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My interpretation is that it would depend on what state the wine making facility is in. If in PA, no limit. If not in PA, 50% of previous year's production.
 

wxtrendsguy

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Officially in PA (being a licensed PA winery I know a little about this)a limited winery license holder can produce wine from produce that originates from any state. The old requirement of in state fruit are gone.

As far as shiners or bulk wine for that matter, you are not allowed to purchase more than 50% of you prior year's production. Thus a new winery who has yet to produce a wine cannot buy in bulk or shiners since the prior year production was essentially 0. This is meant to keep unscrupluous wineries from forming by purchasing finished bulk wine and slapping their own label on it acting as nothing more than a reseller. The real question one should ask is this enforceable? Theoretically it is but in reality its not...
 

jgmann67

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Officially in PA (being a licensed PA winery I know a little about this)a limited winery license holder can produce wine from produce that originates from any state. The old requirement of in state fruit are gone.

As far as shiners or bulk wine for that matter, you are not allowed to purchase more than 50% of you prior year's production. Thus a new winery who has yet to produce a wine cannot buy in bulk or shiners since the prior year production was essentially 0. This is meant to keep unscrupluous wineries from forming by purchasing finished bulk wine and slapping their own label on it acting as nothing more than a reseller. The real question one should ask is this enforceable? Theoretically it is but in reality its not...
Glad you chimed in. if you look at the quote in my thread above, the LCB wrote that you could purchase up to 50% of the volume of your prior year's production from "other limited wineries." Since "limited winery" is a defined term in the Liquor Code, meaning "a winery with a maximum output of two hundred thousand (200,000) gallons per year" they don't necessarily need to be a licensed limited winery under the Pa Liquor Code. Do they?
 

Redbird1

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Did you edit the post? In my mobile app I was able to see the interpretation you posted, but all I see now is the "1".

I think you missed an important preceding sentence in your reading of (a)(2), but perhaps you figured that out.
 

wxtrendsguy

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Glad you chimed in. if you look at the quote in my thread above, the LCB wrote that you could purchase up to 50% of the volume of your prior year's production from "other limited wineries." Since "limited winery" is a defined term in the Liquor Code, meaning "a winery with a maximum output of two hundred thousand (200,000) gallons per year" they don't necessarily need to be a licensed limited winery under the Pa Liquor Code. Do they?
Good God we have one convoluted system in this state! So according to Act 166 of 2016 which amended Act 39 of 2016 which corrects the unconstitutionality of Title 47 P.S. Liquor § 5-505.2 § 5-505.2. which had been nullified by the Supreme Court decision of Granholm v Heald and the federal court ruling in Cutner v. Newman, the following is the law of the land.

Section 505.2.a (1) "Produce...wines...subject to exceptions provided under this section, only from agricultural commodity grown in Pennsylvania"

Section 505.2.a (2) "Sell ... wine ... produced by the limited winery or purchased in bulk in bond from another Pennsylvania limited winery ... Provided, That a limited winery shall not, in any calendar year, purchase ... wine produced by other limited wineries in an amount in excess of fifty per centum of the ... wine produced by the purchasing limited winery in the preceding calendar year. In addition, the holder of a limited winery license may purchase wine in bottles from another Pennsylvania limited winery if these wines undergo a second fermentation process. Such wine may be sold in bottles bearing the purchasing limited winery's label or the producing limited winery's label. ..."

Below are the exceptions for using non PA grown fruit .

Section 505.2.a (6) (i) "Secure a permit from the board to allow the holder of a limited winery license to use up to twenty-five per centum permitted fruit, not wine, in the current year's production. Each permit is valid only for the calendar year in which it is issued."

Section 505.2.a (6) (iii) "The purpose of this section is to increase the productivity of limited wineries while at the same time protecting the integrity and unique characteristics of wine produced from fruit primarily grown in this Commonwealth. Prevailing climatic conditions have a significant impact on the character of the fruit. Accordingly, "permitted fruit" shall mean fruit grown or juice derived from fruit grown within three hundred fifty (350) miles of the winery."




OMG what a freaking nightmare
 

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