OK. Time for some direction. Advice?

Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum

Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:

vinny

Mildly Amused
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2022
Messages
833
Reaction score
1,822
Location
Central Alberta
It's a mixture of reasons -- lesser oak flavor is one reason, and not imparting extra tannin that prolongs aging is another.


I picked up the longer age time due to oak tannins from your longer post. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to humour me. I am seeing that I am asking questions that have been answered and I missed the point or failed to grasp the entirety of what was stated. You helped to clarify what Rice_guy said just by rewording the same thing. Reitterated it came clearer that the oak will increase age time along with all the other factors mentioned.

It takes me back to the previous post where you outlined what to make, things to consider and that I could have a wine ready to drink by Sept. I am only now grasping where the time frame came from and that it was the adjustment to the oaking that would give me that over aiming for a deeper fuller red that would take longer to achieve.

SO! Again, thank you. I am learning a lot and having fun with all of this.

I even intentionally oxidized some wine and did a taste test. Tasted a red as soon as the bottle was opened and after 30 minutes breathing.. Very intersting stuff, especially how oxidizing can completely flatten a wine. I watched one video where It was explained that it is often the biggest mistake made by beginners, and often when tasting a wine he was shocked that they couldn't detect it.

It not only completely removes all impact on the nose, but it removes all excitement in the mouth. I can only imagine that it would completely ruin things given enough time.
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
5,570
Reaction score
14,189
Location
Raleigh, NC, USA
I really appreciate you guys taking the time to humour me.
You're not the first person to note that experienced members of this forum are very polite and helpful to beginners. There are 3 or 4 dozen members who currently post frequently with advice. All in all, this is a great group!

I am seeing that I am asking questions that have been answered and I missed the point or failed to grasp the entirety of what was stated. You helped to clarify what Rice_guy said just by rewording the same thing. Reitterated it came clearer that the oak will increase age time along with all the other factors mentioned.
Keep in mind that winemaking is at once, VERY simple, and at the same time, highly complex and nuanced. You're not going to understand it all at once. Be patient with yourself while you're learning. Within a few batches you'll understand a lot, and you'll spend the remainder of your life learning more.
 

Rice_Guy

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
2,840
Reaction score
3,677
Location
Food Industry - - Retired
making wine is a series of choices, where do you want to put your effort? My point of view is in a factory environment what cost vs predicted return, or what tools do you have. ,,,, Some choices as nitrogen in a bottle line have so much pay back that semis with nitrogen bottle lines visit wineries to do bottling. I built a vacuum system since it seemed easier than inert gas.
For me, I will never intentionally do things to accelerate age. Once you empty your wallet of all the reduced state chemicals it is gone, ,,, and you may say I wish I drank faster or I wish I had fruity aromas like when I made it. When judging wines more fruity always scores higher. (of course some brands add WONF/ with other natural flavors) ,,,,, As noted above it helps to know what you are fermenting because each fruit is different.
I love that the answers are never just yes/no or I think. It's always here's more than you ever thought you would know about oxidizing wine., , , , , Could it be interpreted that bottle aging is an excellerated aging process with the quantity ratio of air to wine, or is it moreso that bottling is the beginning of degredation.
a single bottle metal cap tool is a few thousand, you could easily go to the Reserva corks and get close.
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
5,570
Reaction score
14,189
Location
Raleigh, NC, USA
Some choices as nitrogen in a bottle line have so much pay back that semis with nitrogen bottle lines visit wineries to do bottling. I built a vacuum system since it seemed easier than inert gas.
I'm missing the value of the inert gases at bottling time. I dose the wine with 1/4 tsp K-meta/5 gallons at bottling time, and let the bottling wand set the ullage level, which for Bordeaux bottles is typically right at the top of the curve/base of the neck. I've yet to have a problem with oxidation from that.

Maybe I'm missing the point entirely, but it appears to be a solution in search of a problem.

For me, I will never intentionally do things to accelerate age.
What can be done to accelerate aging of wine? I intentionally leave things out that will extend aging, to produce a younger drinking wine, but I can't think of anything that shortens the aging process.

a single bottle metal cap tool is a few thousand, you could easily go to the Reserva corks and get close.
Corks are another area where I see people putting in too much effort and money for too little return. I've been using the Nomacorc 900 Selects, which are rated for 5 years. Based upon liability costs for corks that fail before the claimed 5 years, I guesstimate that I'll get at least 7 years out of a Nomacorc. I also figure no more than 10% of my wine will be in the bottle that long, due to being whites, fruits, young drinking reds, or other reds that simply get drunk. It makes more sense to re-cork bottles that make 7 years, adding tiny doses of K-meta solution to address any O2 issues.

Some folks will have a lot of wine aged 7 years or more, but I expect that's a relatively small percentage. 90%+ of the world's wine production is targeted for consumption within 3 years. A major point is that it's too expensive for the wineries to hold wine long -- they need the revenue. Another important point is that most wine drinkers are not crazy enough to let a bottle sit for that long. Then there's chemistry -- most whites peak within 3 years, and a lot of commercial reds do as well.
 

vinny

Mildly Amused
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2022
Messages
833
Reaction score
1,822
Location
Central Alberta
The site was down the other night when I was going to post. The house sure smells pungeant. 12 gallons off gasses a heck of a lot more than single gallons.

Does anyone do anything crafty for ventilation? I was thinking of drilling a hole in the wall or the floor and running a tube outside, using a one way valve and filter to let gasses exit, but nothing enter. Maybe building a box, or I could use a manifold and shutoffs with tubing to the tops of airlocks. My house is only six months old, so odors get commented on quickly.

I built a vacuum system since it seemed easier than inert gas.
I had to order oil for my pump as well as a guage so I don't implode anything. I was planning to use it for degassing, but sounds like you use it to transfer as well? Would you mind explaining your setup and how you use it? I'll be putting something together soon.

pump2.jpg

This is the pump type I have. 20 in mg seems to be the vacuum pressure to aim for?
 

vinny

Mildly Amused
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2022
Messages
833
Reaction score
1,822
Location
Central Alberta
a single bottle metal cap tool is a few thousand, you could easily go to the Reserva corks and get close.

I came across this for a single bottle manual crimper.capper.png

There is a video here.

There is contact information in the comments of the video, but that is no fun for me. It looks like it is just a modified copper tube cutter. The blue cap is just to set the height so unless the roller is modified It should be very simple to duplicate. Even if it is modified it should be as simple as popping a pin to slide in a different contact point.

cutter.jpg

Cutters are available on Amazon. It seems like it would be a $30 experiment if a person could find the bottle caps. All I could find was 5000 on Alibaba for around $200 delivered. Not unrealistic especially if others are interested, but that's an awful lot of caps to order without proof of concept.

I have a few projects ahead of this, but we will see what the future brings. If anyone knows where I could order WAY less caps let me know. I only need about 10 to figure out if I can make this work.
 
Last edited:

vinny

Mildly Amused
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2022
Messages
833
Reaction score
1,822
Location
Central Alberta
Based upon liability costs for corks that fail before the claimed 5 years, I guesstimate that I'll get at least 7 years out of a Nomacorc. It makes more sense to re-cork bottles that make 7 years.

I don't think this is much of a concern for me either. If I make it that far with a first batch, it either got forgotten about or intentionally neglected. If I keep up this pace of winemaking, though....
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
5,570
Reaction score
14,189
Location
Raleigh, NC, USA
I don't think this is much of a concern for me either. If I make it that far with a first batch, it either got forgotten about or intentionally neglected. If I keep up this pace of winemaking, though....
Put aside 3 bottles -- open one on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th anniversary of the wine's birth. Your results may be very interesting, or totally revolting, depending on how the wine ages! :p

My 2020's are blends -- I reserved 4 liters of each base wine and each blend, unoaked, which I bottled last fall. The plan is to open 1 bottle of each wine (3 base grapes, 2 unoaked blends, 2 barrel aged blends) each October to see how they compare. I have friends and family already lining up for the tastings!
 

Chuck E

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2018
Messages
598
Reaction score
579
Location
Chicagoland
Does anyone do anything crafty for ventilation? I was thinking of drilling a hole in the wall or the floor and running a tube outside, using a one way valve and filter to let gasses exit, but nothing enter. Maybe building a box, or I could use a manifold and shutoffs with tubing to the tops of airlocks. My house is only six months old, so odors get commented on quickly.

I had to order oil for my pump as well as a guage so I don't implode anything. I was planning to use it for degassing, but sounds like you use it to transfer as well? Would you mind explaining your setup and how you use it? I'll be putting something together soon.

This is the pump type I have. 20 in mg seems to be the vacuum pressure to aim for?

My wife likes the yeasty smell in the basement, so I don't worry about venting. However, when I make new Kmeta, I have an exhaust fan in the basement window to get rid of the fumes.

I use an All-In-One vacuum pump system. The main thing is to have an overflow collection jar/bottle in between the carboy and the vacuum pump. The All-In-One website has pictures that will help you.
 

vinny

Mildly Amused
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2022
Messages
833
Reaction score
1,822
Location
Central Alberta
I use an All-In-One vacuum pump system. The main thing is to have an overflow collection jar/bottle in between the carboy and the vacuum pump.

I rigged this up today and tested it out on the front step. These pumps are oil filled and emit a vapor that I didn't want to fill the house up with. It worked well with the valve to control the vacuum.

I had an idea of how I wanted to this for degassing. Do you transfer with vacuum as well?
wine pump.png
 

vinny

Mildly Amused
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2022
Messages
833
Reaction score
1,822
Location
Central Alberta
My wife likes the yeasty smell in the basement, so I don't worry about venting.

I bet I wouldn't hear much if I was in the basement, too. We decided we didn't want a basement, so I took over the den for all my hobbies. It has hardwood which makes sense over a carpeted room, but I don't have a closet to age in the dark, and I'm right off the main living area. Kitchen, living room and dining area combined, so I get noticed, AND reprimanded.
 

Chuck E

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2018
Messages
598
Reaction score
579
Location
Chicagoland
I use vacuum to transfer as well. Use a two hole stopper on the carboy. Connect the racking cane to one hole in the stopper, and connect the other hole in the stopper to the collection jar before the pump.

With 3 or 4 vacuum rackings, I find all the gas to be gone.
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
5,570
Reaction score
14,189
Location
Raleigh, NC, USA
I bet I wouldn't hear much if I was in the basement, too. We decided we didn't want a basement, so I took over the den for all my hobbies. It has hardwood which makes sense over a carpeted room, but I don't have a closet to age in the dark, and I'm right off the main living area. Kitchen, living room and dining area combined, so I get noticed, AND reprimanded.
It's a bit late now, but you want a basement! :p

We have exercise equipment in the area next to my winemaking area. I'm quietly organizing a coup ... to move that equipment so I can have the entire space. Bwa-ha-ha-ha ...
 

Arne

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
5,113
Reaction score
1,337
Location
central Nebraska
I bet I wouldn't hear much if I was in the basement, too. We decided we didn't want a basement, so I took over the den for all my hobbies. It has hardwood which makes sense over a carpeted room, but I don't have a closet to age in the dark, and I'm right off the main living area. Kitchen, living room and dining area combined, so I get noticed, AND reprimanded.
You are making wine over nice floors? A quick hint, put a pan of some kind under all your carboys. Not for if they overflow but when. A big plastic bag works too, just sit the carboy on it and kinda pull it up a little around it. Arne.
 

ChuckD

Supporting Members
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2021
Messages
906
Reaction score
1,576
Location
NE Wisconsin
It's a bit late now, but you want a basement! :p

We have exercise equipment in the area next to my winemaking area. I'm quietly organizing a coup ... to move that equipment so I can have the entire space. Bwa-ha-ha-ha ...
Save the treadmill. They make excellent drying racks! Just ask my wife🤣
 

Latest posts

Top