Oak in Secondary VS Primary

[seth8530]

Title explains it all. Does anyone here know about the differences and the pros and cons entailed with using oak during the primary stage of fermentation instead of just when you are aging the wine?

I have done some searching on this issue but have not been able to find too much on it.

 

[LoveTheWine]

I believe adding oak during primary tends to soak up off flavors and does other beneficial things to wine other than just adding oak flavors.

This year I had slightly under-ripe grapes that, when crushed smelled very vegetative. I added lots of un-toasted and med toast oak chips and the finished result was wine without any vegetative smell or taste (I also used Opti-Red). The resulting wine had no oak taste in it and I plan on barrel aging and adding staves to impart this flavor.

Adding in secondary is usually for adding oak flavor and oak tannins.

 

[the_rayway]

I believe JohnT just did an article about this - did you have a look?

 

[seth8530]

I believe JohnT just did an article about this - did you have a look?

Are you talking about the one on the front page? If so, I have already read that article which I enjoyed reading quite a bit.

 

[seth8530]

I believe adding oak during primary tends to soak up off flavors and does other beneficial things to wine other than just adding oak flavors.

This year I had slightly under-ripe grapes that, when crushed smelled very vegetative. I added lots of un-toasted and med toast oak chips and the finished result was wine without any vegetative smell or taste (I also used Opti-Red). The resulting wine had no oak taste in it and I plan on barrel aging and adding staves to impart this flavor.

Adding in secondary is usually for adding oak flavor and oak tannins.

I have read things similar to what you are talking about in the past. Which I think is quite interesting and useful to know about.... Hopefully someone will come forward with more information on it.. or at least a good link to some more information.

 

[the_rayway]

I thought it was pretty great! I too am looking at the differences in primary vs secondary.

From what I've got so far, primary: increases mouthfeel, helps with colour retention, adds tannins, and helps with clearing.

Secondary: adds more of the actual oak characteristics of vanilla/toast/coffee, etc.

I will be doing some oak 'testing' with different toasts, timing, layering, etc. one of these days. I would like to see the differences it makes on the same wine.

 

[seth8530]

Yeah, I think we are all familiar with what oak will do in the secondary ( its where the yummy goodness comes from right?)...

"From what I've got so far, primary: increases mouthfeel, helps with colour retention, adds tannins, and helps with clearing."

I have heard all those things too, but I wonder if they are actually true or if it is just a case of the winemaker thinking it is true. If you do some experiments on it I would be more than interested to hear about your results.

 

[richmke]

The wine kit I am in the process of making uses oak shavings in the primary, and oak cubes in the secondary.

 

[vernsgal]

I use the powdered oak in primary for mouthfeel and some tannin and use the cubes or spirals in the secondary. I found using the cubes in the primary didn't really leave you with the flavor you would be trying to get.The coils seem real strong though so I would watch how long you leave them in

 

[BernardSmith]

Yeah, I think we are all familiar with what oak will do in the secondary ( its where the yummy goodness comes from right?)...

"From what I've got so far, primary: increases mouthfeel, helps with colour retention, adds tannins, and helps with clearing."

I have heard all those things too, but I wonder if they are actually true or if it is just a case of the winemaker thinking it is true. If you do some experiments on it I would be more than interested to hear about your results.

But you know that you would have to do double blind randomized tests to get rid of the wine maker's inherent /unintended biases. You cannot do double blind random tests alone

 

[WI_Wino]

Did you find this thread in your searching?

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f74/untoasted-oak-31731/

 

[seth8530]

Thanks for the link, I will give it a look.

 

[JohnT]

I think it is all a question of what you want to get out of it.

I find that (fermenting on oak) adds little to none of the complex flavor components that I want out of my oak. It will add (to a small degree) some of the "Raw-wood" flavors.

As a corrective measure (as described above), I have noticed no benefit to any flaws in the grape. Wood can mask flaws, but does little to correct them.

My feeling (and it is just my feeling) that fermenting on oak is not worth the expense.

 

[Pumpkinman]

Seth,
Oak added at crush and/or to the primary can contribute the follwing

• Compounds developed during the toasting process (of the oak) aid in the initiation of anthocyanin stabilization from the start of fermentation.
• Anthocyanin play an important role in tannin retention in and aging. There is a close association between anthocyanins and wine color and color stability.
• Compounds react with polyphenolicmaterial (tannins) from the grape enhancing mid-palette mouthfeel in wines.
• Certain “green/vegetal” characters in the must can be minimized

Untoasted Oak appears to complement toasted oak, a combination of toasted and untoasted oak work in concert to aid in color stabilization and produce increased smoothness and mouthfeel.
Plus in my opinion, the oak seems to "marry" with the wine when added during fermentation and resemble more of a barrel aged character.

 

[seth8530]

Interesting points John and Pumpkin, I appreciate the insight. So perhaps the best of both worlds would be fermenting with oak spirals in primary and then moving those spirals onward into your secondary as well?

 

[JohnT]

Primary fermentation lasts, say, 7 days. Would that be enough time for spirals?

I would say that using spirals for both fermentation and forward is an interesting idea, but I fail to see any benefit.

I obtain my tannic structure from maceration. As they start out, most would say that they are too tannic.

 

[Pumpkinman]

John,
You have a good point about 7 days and spirals, I usually transfer the spiral to the secondary and add another half if needed, I don't add too much knowing that the wine will have its turn in a barrel. I think that we are on the same page, I enjoy tannic wines as well.

 

[sdelli]

I use chips in the primary due to their fast extraction.... Then nothing in the secondary but mlf.... Then spirals and barrel cycles during aging.... But I have to agree.... Not to sure if the chips are giving me anything worth talking about.

 

[sdelli]

Tannin.... Tannin..... Tannin
I have to shout out that my latest pleasure has been on how nice my red wine is developing with the addition of different tannins as it ages! Of course spirals and barrels are helping too.... But TANNINS are definitely adding some great flavor accent to them that I have been looking for! So..... Forget the wood in the primary.... Add some tannin instead. Then continue into secondary and into aging with a little mix as you go.....

 

[ForzaItalia]

Sdelli, what kind of tannin did you use? Ft Rouge?