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NorCal said:
The last time I used an enzyme it made a 1,000 pounds of Zin a mess to press / clear and the resulting wine was overly tannic. I could however see the use of the enzyme in certain cases where it would be beneficial. I am not against enzymes, but I only use it to solve a deficiency that I see in the fruit to start with.
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The mess you are referring to might have been fairly recent since I remember reading about it. If I remember correctly it was with a bladder press. When you make 1000 lbs I make 100 lbs so my mess is only 1/10 of yours, perhaps I'm just a glutten for punishment.
 
I hear what @NorCal is saying and agree, adjusting your winemaking practices according to the fruit condition makes sense. The main problem is that many winemakers, myself included, don't always know how to recognize the differences in the fruit or how to adjust for them. I have a major disadvantage because I don't see the fruit before it's crushed. I usually use enzymes because I want all of the color I can possibly get, as I subscribe to the concept that more color allows a wine to have more tannin and remain supple (not sure if that's really true, but I believe it). Throughout the years I've only on one occasion had the fruit start to break down excessively; never really determined why. In 2017 I didn't use enzymes, because the supplier recommended not to based on the fruit being ripe and fragile due to extra long hang time. I admit, without that recommendation I probably would have used the enzymes, not sure, but maybe the fruit would have turned to mush as a result.

I think there are many other practices including non-chemical that require knowledge of the fruit, a good example is extended maceration, some people are planning to use this technique before their lug fruit even arrives.

I don't have all of the answers, but sure enjoy the winemaking process and philosophizing with members here.
 
I have certainly created an enzymatic mess, first time I used Lallzyme EX-V. I figured, "If a small amount of enzyme is good, more is better", and that's just not true. It was the longest, most messy and arduous pressing activity ever undertaken. Can't even count the time spent stirring the messy sludge of must in my press, just trying to get enough liquid to drain so that the press would work. This stuff clogged the slats and just squirted up around the press plate if it wasn't dry enough. I'll never overdo the enzymes again................
 
stickman said:
I hear what @NorCal is saying and agree, adjusting your winemaking practices according to the fruit condition makes sense. The main problem is that many winemakers, myself included, don't always know how to recognize the differences in the fruit or how to adjust for them. I have a major disadvantage because I don't see the fruit before it's crushed. .

I think there are many other practices including non-chemical that require knowledge of the fruit, a good example is extended maceration, some people are planning to use this technique before their lug fruit even arrives.

I don't have all of the answers, but sure enjoy the winemaking process and philosophizing with members here.
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So @NorCal, what are the differences in the grapes where you would/would not use enzymes? I am with @stickman, I get my grapes off a truck, and I don't often get to select the fruit. I used Lallzyme EX this year and I am satisfied with the color extraction. My fruit had some raisins in it, so I know there was some time between harvesting and arrival in Chicagoland.
 
No debate intended on my part either. I think the topic is complicated, I'm sure Norcal knows more about assessing grape maturity than I do, but I think grape maturity is part of the issue as it relates to the type of tannins that will be present. You want to extract the good things in the grape but not the bad stuff, so if enzymes increase extraction, is it only the good stuff, or do you have to take some bad with the good. Maybe harsh tannins being present in the grape would be a reason to not use enzymes, on the other hand, you might use the enzymes to quickly extract the color and then cut the maceration short to avoid extracting the harsh tannin, but if you robotically add the enzymes and run a typical maceration until dry, you might end up with a very hard wine, in the end possibly needing fining to remove some tannin. This is a terrible over simplification, and many other grape compounds and factors apply, just wanted to touch the tip of the iceberg.
 
I am only on my 2nd AG batch but used Lallyzme-EX both times and got pretty different extractions. Both batches were 118# but one netted me 7g and the other 8.5g. Not sure if this is a typical range or if the enzyme worked differently but things looked similar both times and there were no issues during press.
 
I have not encountered the "mess" with enzymes yet. I used EX and EX-V last year on 3 wines and this year so far on two. In all cases, the press (bladder) went off without a hitch. In my mind the Enzymes make a huge difference in mouth feel, color and even taste. I don't see a down side. This year, I'm going all EX-V just to understand exactly what it does for me. But just looking at color, I think 100% of the local wineries I frequent use an enzyme treatment. I'll be picking this Saturday and hoping for another 300 pounds of something. Hoping for a Barbera, but would take any interesting red grape that isn't something I'm already making. I should know in 3 days. And for sure, doing EX-V again.

I can definitely say that some grapes are just "juicier" than others. So not surprising to hear that you got 7 gallons from one and 8.5 from another. Case in point-300 pounds of Syrah net 19 gallons of wine before racking of the gross lees. 300 pounds of Primitivo net 25 plus a bit at the same point. The Primitivo may have been a generous weight at crush, but you get my point. I'm stoked to have any grapes and like the enzymes to make the most of it.

Wine making is an odd endeavor. You go through the motions, but really don't know for 2 years how you did. This is a hobby that should be started at 20 not 50. You need time to make mistakes, backtrack and correct over time. One of my wine making friends says your wine gets better over time because you stop making the mistakes of last year. I can see that.
 
Great discussion. I would reach for enzymes when I had unripe fruit, as I know without some help, the wine will be light, thin and lack fullness.

I’ve experienced grapes that were at 25 brix, but still unripe. I look for seeds that are brown, the flesh pulls away from the skin and there are grape flavors and not just sweetness.

If I were doing a Pinot or another delicate red and I didn’t want to blend in a little Syrah, Petit Sirah or Petit Verdot, I would also consider an enzyme.
 
NorCal said:
Great discussion. I would reach for enzymes when I had unripe fruit, as I know without some help, the wine will be light, thin and lack fullness.
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So that was 2017 for me. The fruit was ripe, the wine was "ok" but had a thin quality to it. I was surprised the with the generous Silver at the Clos du Lac tasting! Thus the enzymes since. The 2018 is definitely better and I hope the 2019 is even better!
 
Mac60 said:
What size press is that, how do you like it
Mike
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Was just a one time thing. A rental before I purchased my own basket press couple years ago
The bladder press was a 90L I rented as a last resort. (The 45l was rented out already) Even with all the fumbling as a noob— was still pretty awesome. I’m glad I got a chance to use one. New toys are just plain fun. I get by fine with a #35 ratchet— but if I made volume like you I’d certainly recommend.
 
So MLF is complete and just racked this to a new barrel. The pH was about 3.4 so doesn’t seem as acidic but I still get a green flavor. I’d say it reminds me of stems or something. Obviously it’s way to early to tell how this will turn out but is a “green stem” flavor typical if a red that just finished MLF about 45 days in?
 
New wine tastes new. Fruity, grapey, but not green per say. Is it a green pepper smell? Maybe pyrazines? I think that can be normal for Cabernet. You're going to have to do the long wait to find out!
 
I’d describe all of my young kit wines as “fruity” but that’s not what I have gotten from my first (4) all grape or juice bucket batches. I don’t think I’d describe it as green pepper but will look for that on my next sample. To me, it’s kind of like a green stem flavor which is off because I basically hand picked any stems that made it through the C/D.

Really hoping that it’s something that will fade with time as the wine matures.
 
Interesting.

The grapes were very good and tasted fantastic so this seems to have developed during fermentation.
 

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