Noblesse made wine cloudy

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Ct Winemaker

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Looking for ideas. We have 18 gallons of Riesling made last fall (California grapes). It was looking good (clear) and near ready to bottle but a slight off taste and nose. It was suggested we try Noblesse which we did. It made the wine cloudy and appears like it will not clear. Wine originally went through bentonite & cold soak as well as KS Enzyme and was clear way before this episode with Noblesse.

Has anybody else seen this with Noblesse? Any thoughts?

Thank you
 

MiBor

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Has anybody else seen this with Noblesse? Any thoughts?

I don't have any personal experience with Noblesse, but I know of someone who used it 2 years ago on a Chilean sauv-blanc and it clouded the wine. He had to use a clearing agent, Sparkolloid - if I remember correctly, and that solved the problem in a couple of weeks. I tasted that wine about 6 months after he bottled it, actually. It had good flavor and smell and a crisp finish. I think the Noblesse helped bring back the flavor in that wine, at a time when the winemaker wasn't sure if he was going to keep it.
 

stickman

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I'm just guessing, but the haze is probably protein based. Riesling is known for requiring more bentonite than typical, so the wine may have been on the edge of protein stability and the Noblesse may have pushed it over. Bentonite or even a small amount of tannin can usually clear the wine. Maybe do a trial with a sample to see what works.
 

Johnd

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Here's the skinny from the website on Noblesse:

"ICV Noblesse® is OMRI listed. It is a yeast derivative nutrient for use in red and white wines. Wines made with ICV Noblesse exhibit a more intense perception of ripe fruit together with an overall roundness and softness in the finish. There is decreased tannic intensity in the mid-palate.
ICV Noblesse can help reduce undesirable aggressive characters or sensations of dryness. It can also help reduce the burning sensations common in higher alcohol wines and in wines made from botrytised grapes. The production process used for ICV Noblesse inactivates sulfite-reductase potential, greatly limiting the sulfur off-odors. Although immediate results are possible it may take three to five months for full integration.
To Use: Mix ICV Noblesse in 10 times its weight in water or must (juice). Add during a pump-over or tank mixing. This product is partially soluble. Stir to maintain suspension before and during addition."

Note the "partially soluble" part. It doesn't seem that you have any sort of pectin problem if you were clear before, so we can rule that out. I don't know if the suspended particles are positively or negatively charged, and your bentonite is long gone, so my suggestion is to try a pack of DualFine, which is just kieselsol and chitosan, a magical concoction for clearing.
 

Ct Winemaker

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Thanks everyone for the thoughts and suggestions. Please keep them coming. We spoke with a local winemaking expert (consultant to several winerys), and he also thought it was likely protein based so suggested another round of bentonite, which we did (about 3 weeks back). It has now cleared back to about what it was before the Noblees, which was and still is a little hazy. We now have one of three 6 gal car boys back in the freezer (34 deg F) for cold stabilization. If that doesn’t work to remove the haze, the next plan is to try Super Kleer again (chitosen and kieselsol - already done once way back). I’ll let you all know how that goes, but if not good, we’ll probably try fine filtering ( 1 micron).

Really beating this wine up so may end up with 18 gallons to; sweeten, blend, or make a lot of wine coolers! By the way, this is the wine in our pic under name.

Thanks again
 

stickman

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Maybe you can provide some information on the process. You indicated above that this wine was from California grapes. Did you handle the grapes and do the normal crushing pressing settling etc.? Did the wine go through ML or have you been preventing it with kmeta or other means? pH and free so2?

If you take a sample and expose it to air for 24hrs, does it get clear? If so , probably copper based haze.

If you take a sample and heat to 175F, does it get clear, then back to hazy when cooled? If so, probably protein based.
 

Ct Winemaker

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Hello Stickman,
Thank you very much for the testing method suggestions, never heard these before and will certainly give them a try.
To answer your questions, the grapes were 8 cases, Central Valley Riesling. We processed the way we learned at the Musto Boot Camp and following the More Wine white wine book. Although this is the first time we made white wine from grapes, we have made several successful batches from fresh juice (not kits) and red wine from grapes. In regards to this specific process, it was as follows:
-Initial PH = 3.82, Brix = 20. After adjustments (tartaric acid and sugar), we ended with PH=3.44, TA= 8.2, and Brix = 25.
-Crushed grapes and kept cool with cooling tubes (ice) to about 65 deg F. Added Cinn-Free Enzyme during crush, and SO2 to 50 ppm. Kept cool.
-Next day, pitched R2 yeast hydrated via go-firm method and used Opti-white, Fermaid O and K per normal process as well as Booster Blanc.
-Fermentation went well / maybe a bit warm and fast. Fermented dry in about 5-6 days(-1/2 brix).
-Racked into carboys and adjusted SO2 to the now PH of 3.38 (48 ppm SO2).
-Allowed to settle for 2 weeks, racked to clean carboys, and started bentonite / cold stabilize / Super Kleer process.
-After about 5 months, wine was still not perfectly clear and taste was "blah" so decided to try the Noblesse process, which brought us to where we are now.

Riesling grapes.jpg Riesling Must.jpg Riesling press.jpg
 

Cellar Vader

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Sorry folks, but for some reason I am unable to start a new thread so I have to hijack this one.
I have been looking for info re: Noblesse, and from what I found on ScottLabs site, it is a "nutrient." That would imply, to myself at least, that this would be intended for active yeast. But...everywhere else I see it used as an additive after having used Reduless on a problematic odor. I know that others here have used Noblesse, and I have used Reduless on 2 of my kit wines so far. It worked very well in ridding the rotten-egg odor, but now I feel I should treat it with Noblesse to recover things that Reduless "may" have stripped from the wine.
Can I get some feedback from those of you who have more working knowledge with Noblesse?
 

MiBor

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It definitely won't hurt your wine if you use it as an additive. It has an adsorbent effect and picks up the remaining copper left behind by Reduless, along with some other impurities. It also enhances the body of the wine, if left in the aging container for a couple of months or more. The only thing is that it may cloud a white wine for a while, but you may not notice it in a red. Check this out:
https://www.apps.fst.vt.edu/extension/enology/downloads/Delteil_Noblesse_guidelines_dec_2010.pdf
 

Cellar Vader

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@MiBor Thank you. Now my question would be: does it matter at what point in time that I add Noblesse to my wine? I have already racked at the prescribed 72-hour mark for both of these wines, but only within the last week or so. I’m thinking that I should dose both of them now.
 

MiBor

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@Cellar Vader I don't think that it matters when you add it, as long as you don't plan on bottling the wine in the next month or so. H2S, bret and other wine problems can show up at any point in the aging process and Noblesse is still recommended by the pros for all those issues, after more potent treatments. If it was my wine, I would add Noblesse (to the carboy/demijohn, but not in a barrel) per manufacturer's recommendations and let it work for at least a month before racking. It's your choice, though. I think the wine will be fine with or without Noblesse if you age it long enough, but Noblesse may add a little extra body/character to it.
 

Cellar Vader

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I’m gonna add it to both now. I do plan on leaving each of these in their carboys for 3 months til I rack them again. Thanks for your help!
 
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