mouse in vinegar

[josephenoch]

I started making my second wine this year and this time around I decided to let it turn to vinegar. I do it old school style with old oak barrels and I make it all by hand. Today on December 26 while stirring my mash, I discovered a dead mouse in one of my barrels. It was dead. It was not decomposed or decomposing. It was probably in the liquid and mash for no longer than a week or two, maybe three but I don't think so. There is about 25 gallons of liquid in this barrel and I do not want to throw it out.

What will this do to my juice?
What would you do?
Here is what goes through my head...
It sounds kind of gross at first but hear me out...
Will the dead mouse contaminate my second wine vinegar?
Will the fermentation process and acid in the alcohol turning to vinegar be enough to kill any bacteria the dead mouse may have possibly left in my liquid?
There are worms in the wild mushrooms I eat all the time and it doesn't seem to harm me.
People grow vegetables in dirt and worm crap.
There have been years where there have been many hundreds if not thousands of fruit flies that have landed on my mash and laid eggs in the mash and that has never harmed anyone in my family or friends from drinking that wine.
I have even made wine with moldy grapes and that has never harmed anyone who drank it.
Is the mouse simply just pickled?
People ferment meat all the time.
How is this any different?
People in other countries eat rats. How is this any different?
What harm is a drop of mouse poo or pee after it's pressed out when the ratio to liquid is so minimal?
25 gallons to a few drops?
Does this happen in major commercial wine distribution processes?
It's not like it's arsenic or amatoxins in deadly wild mushrooms.
Has anyone read "The Immortality Key?"
Apparently according to the book, there have been trace elements of residue from toxic plants and lizard bones found in old containers people used to ferment their wines in to give it more a "kick."
Are we doing things all wrong by sterilizing too much?
Anyone want to come over any have a glass of this stuff with me when it's ready?
Seriously, all feedback is welcome on this.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Adding vinegar to a protein is a traditional method for preserving food, ex search out a vinegar based recipe for making herring out of fish, NO one does not have to cook/ reduce the bacterial load on the protein first. ,,, The food company operated a pickle factory in Australia using a natural fermentation,,,, pickling works. It may seem gross but this is the normal technology that existed in 1600 and even 1906 (Pure Food & Drug Act)
In industry there are occasional errors that happen and yes the FDA rules say if it touches the floor it is composted, , , , BUT I have been in a variety of factories.

I would first and foremost ask what pH are you at? If below pH 3.0 the risk of growing something that will make you sick is low. If pH 2.0 or below the bones go away and it is an interesting Texture, ,,, fur/ skin will remain. If above pH 5.0 you will have several bacterial families colonize the protein and I can’t predict if the results are healthy. in 1600 the flavor would be the test of choice , , , , , how does it taste?

 

[ratflinger]

Never invite me to your house

 

[Bossbaby]

I would have a really hard time consuming dead mouse wine,I've seen and smelt what a 1 week old dead mouse in a 5gal bucket with water in it smells like more than once, I think the wine has masked the odor of decomposition for you to not gag when smelling it. Just my thoughts to each his own..

 

[ChuckD]

Reminds me of the time we came out in the morning to find a boiled grey squirrel doing the backstroke in a still hot batch of maple syrup.

My dad tried filtering out the hair! My mom made him dump it out

 

[stickman]

This seems like a troll to me.

 

[Scooter68]

This seems like a troll to me.

Yeah, we seem to have has a couple lately one simply copied my post, altered a few words and posted in the same thread. I responded once but that only seems to feed the troll so no more. On this one, I think I'll do the same now.
Remember schools are out now and the children have lots of free time to play. Maybe they will give up and go play on the freeway... (ooops did I say that?)

 

[josephenoch]

Yeah, we seem to have has a couple lately one simply copied my post, altered a few words and posted in the same thread. I responded once but that only seems to feed the troll so no more. On this one, I think I'll do the same now.
Remember schools are out now and the children have lots of free time to play. Maybe they will give up and go play on the freeway... (ooops did I say that?)

No, I'm seriously not a troll. However... I was actually one of the first trolls on the net back in 95', then I realized there is much more I could do with my time so I gave it up. I do appreciate your feedback. Thanks.

 

[josephenoch]

Adding vinegar to a protein is a traditional method for preserving food, ex search out a vinegar based recipe for making herring out of fish, NO one does not have to cook/ reduce the bacterial load on the protein first. ,,, The food company operated a pickle factory in Australia using a natural fermentation,,,, pickling works. It may seem gross but this is the normal technology that existed in 1600 and even 1906 (Pure Food & Drug Act)
In industry there are occasional errors that happen and yes the FDA rules say if it touches the floor it is composted, , , , BUT I have been in a variety of factories.

I would first and foremost ask what pH are you at? If below pH 3.0 the risk of growing something that will make you sick is low. If pH 2.0 or below the bones go away and it is an interesting Texture, ,,, fur/ skin will remain. If above pH 5.0 you will have several bacterial families colonize the protein and I can’t predict if the results are healthy. in 1600 the flavor would be the test of choice , , , , , how does it taste?

I have not tasted it yet. Nor have I tested the pH. I'm very old school so I have trained myself to make all my ferments based on time and sensory and visual observations of bacteria and processes. In other words, if it looks done when it stops boiling or when the mother forms on top, then I bottle it, but it's not quite at that point yet. I have about three more months to go for the mother to form. It actually smells like very good potent vinegar. No rot smell at all.

We made a Carignane and a Sangiovese this year. I always make a second wine because the cost is such a small fraction compared to what our grapes cost. A bonus on top of the second wine ferment, I have the choice to either turn the liquid turn to vinegar or throw it in the still after the first boil to make grappa.

The Carignane first and second did ferment quicker than the Sangiovese first and second. The Sangiovese fermented about four days longer. I used the same amount of sugar in each of the barrels too for the second wine. Please let me know if you've had similar experiences. I did taste the barrel before the mouse went in and it was great. Like I said before, the smell is of an excellent vinegar right now. I'll have to keep you posted.

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[josephenoch]

This seems like a troll to me.

I do have fuzzy ears.

 

[Daboyleroy]

https://origins.osu.edu/connecting-...ath-plague-lessons?language_content_entity=en

 

[RottenGrapeJuice]

Sir, the mousiness you are experiencing is likely due to a bacterial infection, not the actual dead rat.

 

[Scooter68]

First thing is let's put this in perspective. You may have seen the story about a man arrested for emptying his bladder in a water reservoir (image of the reservoir and "The Act" below) . The reservoir was an small open air lake with trees vegetation and of course wildlife surrounding it. Compare that to someone doing that in your backyard pool, or in your jacuzzi. So at what point is it totally foolish to consider keeping the water and not draining it? In the case of that reservoir - The powers that be decided they needed to drain most of the water from that reservoir - most of 38 million gallons. Remember that was an open air reservoir where no doubt leaves, bird poop and who knows what else ended up in there. So in the words of Dirty Harry do feel lucky? Is your 10, 20, 50 gallons of vinegar safe and worth saving? (Note: I found that reservoir draining decision to be a huge overreaction.)

 

[Rice_Guy]

my assumption is that you started with a typical 11 to 13% ABV wine someplace close to pH 3.5, therefore you would finish with a “double strength“ commercial product, therefore your pH should be in the range of +/- 1.5 when finished. A finished vinegar would make a safe to eat pickled protein ,,, and I have been out of the States and tasted local old school food, for the job, ,,,, Old School only means that someone with a degree hasn’t installed a programmable controller in the factory taking the person/ experience out ,,,,,, YET!
The implication on pH is how far along are you on converting alcohol (which also is a good preservative) into acetic acid (which is a better preservative).

I have not tasted it yet. Nor have I tested the pH. I'm very old school so I have trained myself to make all my ferments based on time and sensory and visual observations of bacteria and processes. . . It actually smells like very good potent vinegar. No rot smell at all.
. . . the smell is of an excellent vinegar right now. I'll have to keep you posted.

well said @Scooter68, the States is an extremely wealthy society which tosses out lots of perfectly healthy food or repairable tools and toys. Travel over seas seeing old school methods helps one understand what is real. ,,,, AND another example, the USDA reciently put out a rule removing wooden boards in the cheese fermentation room ,,, since it transferred cultures that produced the high quality flavors which were OK for thousands of years.

 

[josephenoch]

First thing is let's put this in perspective. You may have seen the story about a man arrested for emptying his bladder in a water reservoir (image of the reservoir and "The Act" below) . The reservoir was an small open air lake with trees vegetation and of course wildlife surrounding it. Compare that to someone doing that in your backyard pool, or in your jacuzzi. So at what point is it totally foolish to consider keeping the water and not draining it? In the case of that reservoir - The powers that be decided they needed to drain most of the water from that reservoir - most of 38 million gallons. Remember that was an open air reservoir where no doubt leaves, bird poop and who knows what else ended up in there. So in the words of Dirty Harry do feel lucky? Is your 10, 20, 50 gallons of vinegar safe and worth saving? (Note: I found that reservoir draining decision to be a huge overreaction.) View attachment 82640View attachment 82641

Draining the reservoir is a bit ridiculous. It's also a different type of liquid we're talking about with different acid levels. Urine is 95% percent water anyway, but it's Portland which is run by crackpots to begin with. Yes the reservoir is full of wild animals doing their business and natural organisms and all sorts of natural cycles going on. I'm the type of guy that gets grossed out when I see a dog licking it's owner in the mouth. That's because I know dog clean their own asses out by licking them. That's just sick in my book. I know that the mouse had not started to decompose and break down because it's at the second wine stage. All the sugars were boiled out. I have a good feeling about keeping my vinegar because I think the vinegar process will sterilize any if any bacteria that might be in there. I'll post some photos so you can see my set up and mouse.

 

[josephenoch]

my assumption is that you started with a typical 11 to 13% ABV wine someplace close to pH 3.5, therefore you would finish with a “double strength“ commercial product, therefore your pH should be in the range of +/- 1.5 when finished. A finished vinegar would make a safe to eat pickled protein ,,, and I have been out of the States and tasted local old school food, for the job, ,,,, Old School only means that someone with a degree hasn’t installed a programmable controller in the factory taking the person/ experience out ,,,,,, YET!
The implication on pH is how far along are you on converting alcohol (which also is a good preservative) into acetic acid (which is a better preservative).

well said @Scooter68, the States is an extremely wealthy society which tosses out lots of perfectly healthy food or repairable tools and toys. Travel over seas seeing old school methods helps one understand what is real. ,,,, AND another example, the USDA reciently put out a rule removing wooden boards in the cheese fermentation room ,,, since it transferred cultures that produced the high quality flavors which were OK for thousands of years.

I tasted it today and it tastes fine, just like a strong second wine smelling as it's turning into potent vinegar. I don't think I'll be installing any programmable controllers in my set up. I'll post some photos so you can see what I'm using. That's my press in my profile pic by the way. My father told me it's some 100 year old press but I really don't know.

 

[josephenoch]

Here is my setup and the little guy that I found.
Look how clean and healthy he looks.
I think he just got too drunk.

 

[MiBor]

To me, this would be a simple matter to solve. All it would take is to answer the following question honestly: Would I ingest the vinegar myself knowing that I found a dead mouse in it?
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me that answer would be an absolute "NO".

 

[ChuckD]

To me, this would be a simple matter to solve. All it would take is to answer the following question honestly: Would I ingest the vinegar myself knowing that I found a dead mouse in it?
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me that answer would be an absolute "NO".

Eh… I’m a realist. You would be shocked at the nasty unsanitary stuff that has ended up in your body without your knowledge. Just the stuff I know I have have accidentally ingested is pretty gross.
When my son was an infant I joked that his nickname was “fire hose” because he would routinely wait until his diaper was removed to relieve himself. I swear he hit the ceiling one time and I got a face full more than once . We won’t discuss a slip of the knife and what blasted me in the face a few weeks ago when field dressing a deer .

 

[Neb Farmer]

A person could just distill the 'wine' and use the alcohol. I've never tried 'pickled mouse' , but it can't be much worse than pickled salmon ...lol!