MLF not recommended for yeast I selected...

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Siwash

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I ordered BM 4x4 yeast due to the high ratings it gets for sangiovese wines. I was going to carry out my first MLF this fall but just came across info that states it is not compatible with MLF. So, do I skip the MLF?? What does this ultimately mean? Is the malo acid not present in wines using BM 4x4? How do you tame the malo if it is present?

Just a little confused here... :?

Thanks
 

NCWC

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I've used BM45 which BM4x4 is a strain and MLF with no problems
MLF is a secondary fermintation after you reache SG 0.992 or so


Dont use kmeta(so2) yet as it will make MLF not possible
 

Siwash

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I've used BM45 which BM4x4 is a strain and MLF with no problems
MLF is a secondary fermintation after you reache SG 0.992 or so


Dont use kmeta(so2) yet as it will make MLF not possible
No So2? I thought So2 must be added at beginning of primary fermentation to kill off native yeast... What am i missing? This is getting confusing!

I am also considering co-inoculation as there is a recent thread on it on this site - both primary yeast and MLB are used together (MLB added 24 to 48 hours after pitching yeast).
 

Siwash

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Fresh California grapes... thanks for the link! I actually have that saved and printed a copy last year. Says to add So2 prior to adding yeast... I fool wed that guide closely last year. Did not carry out an MLF though...
 

Brub58

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To co inoculate wait 24 hrs after pitching the yeast before pitching the mlb. That gives the yeast time to blow off the so2 you added at crush.
 

cmason1957

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I have used BM4x4 and done successful Mlf. Although I did not coinoculate. I beekeeping I read somewhere that you should not do that with BM4x4. If you use a good malolactic bacteria and add no So2 you should be good.
 

Siwash

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I have used BM4x4 and done successful Mlf. Although I did not coinoculate. I beekeeping I read somewhere that you should not do that with BM4x4. If you use a good malolactic bacteria and add no So2 you should be good.
Should not do what with BM 4x4?
 

Johny99

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I too use BM4X4 and do Malo after fermentation with no problems. Where did you see it was not recommended as that will be my regime again this year.
 

Siwash

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@Johnny 99, it doesn't say you cannot MLF. It does clearly state that BM 4x4 and BM45 are NOT recommended for MLF. And, it does state that BM45 and BM 4x4 are HIGHLY recommended for co-inoculation.
 

Johnd

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@Johnny 99, it doesn't say you cannot MLF. It does clearly state that BM 4x4 and BM45 are NOT recommended for MLF. And, it does state that BM45 and BM 4x4 are HIGHLY recommended for co-inoculation.
And on the technical data sheet, it says "facilitates malolactic fermentation", as well as "low SO2 production".
 

Siwash

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I am going to kill 2 birds with one stone and co-inoculate.. let you know how it goes!
 

ceeaton

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And on the technical data sheet, it says "facilitates malolactic fermentation", as well as "low SO2 production".
John, their techincal data sheet and their technical information don't align, something is awry:

-----
Fermentation Speed
Moderate

Lag Phase
Moderate

MLF Compatibility
Not really recommended


Nitrogen Needs
High

Alcohol Tolerance
15 %

Volatile Acidity
Moderate

SO₂ Production
High


Max. Temperature
28 °C

Min. Temperature
18 °C

H₂S 170ppm
Low

H₂S 60ppm
Low

Suitability for co-Inoculation
Very recommended
-------

But by an earlier post it seems real world trials seem to work okay.
 

Johnd

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John, their techincal data sheet and their technical information don't align, something is awry:

-----
Fermentation Speed
Moderate

Lag Phase
Moderate

MLF Compatibility
Not really recommended


Nitrogen Needs
High

Alcohol Tolerance
15 %

Volatile Acidity
Moderate

SO₂ Production
High


Max. Temperature
28 °C

Min. Temperature
18 °C

H₂S 170ppm
Low

H₂S 60ppm
Low

Suitability for co-Inoculation
Very recommended
-------

But by an earlier post it seems real world trials seem to work okay.
Agreed. I think the "suitability for co-inoculation" refers to using with other yeasts.
My thinking with this yeast, is that if it gobbles nutrients and produces SO2, I wouldn't pitch this yeast and MLF in close proximity. When fermentation has nearly ended, gross lees are gone, and SO2 has had a chance to blow off a bit is my selected timing. Nice fresh MLB nutrients in there, more hospitable environment. Once the sugar is gone and the yeast are dead, it doesn't seem like it would matter what yeast used to be in the wine. Just one mans opinion.
 

Johny99

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I am going to kill 2 birds with one stone and co-inoculate.. let you know how it goes!
Please let us know how it goes. I'm going to do mlf after primary like last year. Hopefully we both love the results:db
 

cmason1957

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Please see this post. - http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=620084&postcount=41

it references a PDF straight from the manufacturer.

"Lalvin BM4x4 has elevated nutrient needs and so is not considered MLF friendly. Not recommended for co-inoculation of yeast and Lactic Acid Bacteria. Ensure adequate nutrients when used in sequential inoculation."
 

Siwash

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Please see this post. - http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=620084&postcount=41

it references a PDF straight from the manufacturer.

"Lalvin BM4x4 has elevated nutrient needs and so is not considered MLF friendly. Not recommended for co-inoculation of yeast and Lactic Acid Bacteria. Ensure adequate nutrients when used in sequential inoculation."
I'm still a bit confused, to be honest. So it's not MLF friendly but if carrying out MLf then it should be done in sequential order (not co-inoculated). If doing a sequential MLF, then I need to ensure there's a lot of nutrients. So what nutrient should I add for the sequential MLF?
 

cmason1957

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Opti’Malo Plus® is a natural nutrient developed by Lallemand specifically for MLF. It is a blend of inactive yeasts rich in amino acids, mineral cofactors, vitamins, cell wall polysaccharides and cellulose. The cellulose provides surface area to help keep the bacteria in sus*pension and to help adsorb toxic compounds that may be present at the end of primary fermentation.

To Use: Suspend in a small amount of water or wine and add directly to the wine at the same time as the malolactic culture. It should not be added to the rehy*dration water.

Storage: Dated expiration. Store at 18°C(65°F). Once opened, keep tightly sealed and dry.
 

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