Mega Purple and Glycerol

[Ajmassa]

Eh. Forget commercial. When it’s business there’s just too many variables that change the entire approach compared to the hobbyist.

and yeah, regardless of technicalities there is still a huge part of me that would feel like a liar w/ MP. Especially after getting there au natural. I’ve only had it once. Others were close. But last year I bucked up and got grapes from Wash St Red Mt. —-No comparison. Super Vibrant and inky- stains the glass. And the flavor? Gd! I look at it and take a sip & it’s kinda like, “ooooooh that’s right. This is what wine is supposed to taste & look like. Dump all others! goin full winemaking-snob from now on!” Lol
But if all my wines looked like that? Dilutes the superiority of the ones that do. Less special.

Profiles/varietals that don’t match the MegaPurple color?- eh. To each their own. A man can wear makeup, have hair extensions, fake nails, high heels, & fake breasts— and visually look like a gorgeous woman. But take a sip & you’ll notice the body doesn’t match the appearance-hiyoooo!
No judgements. Just as long as the intention isn’t to pass off cheap table wine as expensive Napa cab ya dig? Keep it real. I like the idea of MP. But have hangups on using it personally

 

[franc1969]

I am not so much a 'purist' as a lazy person without much money. I minimize my additives if neglect can do the same. Time, I forgot, that's called Time. Anyway, color concentrate and a cheap flavor bottle can make $3 gallon sweet cider look and taste good fermented? Awesome, and without the concerns I have about commercially available stuff. Kind of like making my own soda- I know it's soda and not great but know what's in it? Grape color, not artificial. The only reason I haven't used it is need. I will probably use it when I finish my lilac wine, because the rest of my family will do better with a slight color.
I wouldn't put this in grape wine, really, unless you were making the dark.red.wine from white.whites. But it just took a few drops to make a rosé out of water, so pretty economical if companies want to boost wines to where they think color should be. What I may make is no different than some of the questionable kits out there. Or like that Romanian 'pinot noir'.

 

[Rocktop]

I have really enjoyed this thread, it connects back to a previous post I made about how the heck they can get Meomi Pinot Noir to look and taste like it does, especially when it is released less than 12 months after harvest. The answer came back resoundingly as MP. I did a bunch more reading on MP and found out just how prevalent its use is. I was abhorred and thought never would i ever use something like that, I am a "natural" wine maker and lover....
I also stopped buying the big california reds like apothetic etc. now knowing what was actually giving them their heft.

Well.... my thoughts changed over the past year. The biggest change was reading Clark Smith's 'Postmodern Winemaking" as recommended by another member here. It is a great read and dives deep into this topic and all the other large winery techniques like long hang time to get sweet jammy fruit, then reverse osmis, flash detente and Mega Purple just to name a few. He speaks at lengths about the juxtaposition of "traditional" or natural winemaking vs modern commercial scale winemaking. I won't rewrite it all but if "traditional" wine methods make traditional wine then "traditional" needs to be clearly defined and people purchase and enjoy them as traditional wines and compare those wines to each other.
But what is the definition of "traditional", that is the rub. Just grapes and nothing else? maybe just grapes and commercial yeast? As he says, you can't be kinda pregnant. You are full traditional or not.

This has solidified in my mind due to 2 posts recently on WMT. First, a reminder to get your supplies for fall early. Good point, so checked my shopping cart: Fermiad O, Fermaid K, Luecfood, specialized renascence yeast, MLF yeast, Llalzyme and any other additions I may need to fix flaws like the H2S problems I had last year...
The second post was about the use of glycerine. I did my blending bench test of my Bordeaux blend and man if only I could reduce the harshness of the young tannins and just a touch of sweetness would make it blend work so well. Researched back-sweetning and realized I didn't want to chance re-fermentation or geranium odours and then Voila! a thread about the benefits of glycerin, problem solved. Without a second thought, went for a quick drive to the wine shop and came home with a bottle of glycerin which will be used during tomorrow's bottling.

Point being, I considered myself a traditional wine kinda guy until I examined my practices and realized the jump between what I was adding as a hobbyist and what commercial wineries were adding like MP or other additives is non-existent. Especially when you consider their businesses or share holders count on it being perfect every year, cause let's face it, the general public wouldn't accept any less.

I believe over time, as my grape quality increases, I will begin to scale back my additives but for now I want to build a cellar of wine I enjoy drinking and watch my friends delight at. If I said to them, I only used "traditional" techniques instead of saying I used all the modern tools to my disposal, it wouldn't mean a thing to them. In the end it comes down to making the best wine you can that you enjoy and can share with pride. Now if my friends were all purists well maybe that changes things.
Sorry for the long ramble, I have given a lot of thought to this topic over the past year.

Great thread.
RT

 

[user 38734]

I have given a lot of thought to this topic over the past year.

You obviously have. Thank you for taking the time.

GREAT POST.

 

[winemaker81]

@Rocktop, excellent post. You nailed the reality of commercial wine production.

You also hit my POV on winemaking -- I'm going to make the best wine I can. No one complains when I pop a cork so I'm doing something right.

Personally, your thought about scaling back as grape quality increases is not going to work out. Mother Nature does her own thing and you can only control so much to produce quality. Some years, regardless of what you do, the quality will not be what you want. So you'll continue to make good wine by whatever method you feel appropriate. Kudos!

 

[Brant]

Yes, I'm bringing this Mega Purple thread back from the dead. Don't judge me.

Has anyone looked into freezing MP as an alternative to letting it expire since the self life is so short?

I'm all about gaining every advantage. I'm not a purist. I'm more concerned with wasting my time and money. And I don't like waiting an entire year just to be disappointed. If I can make a young wine that has more fruit forward character and is smoother and darker, you can bet your sweet a$$ I'm going to try it. Why not?

Any idea if MP is added pre or post ferment? If post, is it in secondary or right before bottling? Anyone know the ins and outs of using it?

 

[winemaker81]

Yes, I'm bringing this Mega Purple thread back from the dead. Don't judge me.

Thread necromancy is fine. Those that don't like it can skip it, right?

Since it's a 68 brix grape concentrate, I assume MP can be frozen. Given that the sugar in it is used to round the wine's flavor, I'd add it post-fermentation, and the wine will require stabilization else it will renew the fermentation.

I read that the MP dosage is 0.2%, which comes out to 46 ml / 1.55 US OZ per 23 liter carboy. That means a gallon will treat 82x 23 liter carboys, if I did the math correctly. If you make 60 US gallons per year (10x 23 liter carboys) that gallon will last 8 years, although I'm not sure if the concentrate will be good for that long. If you try this, you're best served by finding a few people to split the jug with.

I use Scottzyme ColorPro successfully with both grapes and skin packs, achieving pure ink for color and a rich body. At bottling time I add glycerin with improves body and smooths rough flavors.

Winemaking is a patience game, and since it's a natural product, there are no guarantees to final quality. Kits have a higher average in quality, but even then it's not guaranteed. Stuff happens.

The best advice on this forum is to make more wine than you drink, and relax. You're (hopefully) going to have some real successes, and odds are you'll have some less successful batches. Hopefully most will be above average.

Note that if I was a commercial winery, I'd have no problem using MP. When it's business, selling my wine is critical to my success, and I'd use all legal means to ensure sales. As an amateur, I have no such requirements and have an entirely different viewpoint.

In the late 80's the owner of Swedish Hill in NY laughingly told me how they sold Marechal Foch in the spring, whereas their competitors typically waited until the fall. She and her husband added 5% Concord, which added a bit of sweetness and made the wine very drinkable at 6 months old. I thought it was brilliant!

 

[Brant]

I called the company that sells it and they have a branch in Fredericksburg, TX which is near me. I was hopeful they might supply it to the local wineries but it's actually the only product they don't stock. Go figure.

I contacted the Cali location and they were very helpful. He recommended adding pre-bottling and obviously doing bench trials but starting around 1 ml per 1 L ratio.

He also stated that it's like 9 months shelf life in fridge and 12 months frozen but he figured that the 12 month is conservative.

Cost is prohibitive tho. Almost 400/gallon after adding on 3 day shipping (which he recommended 2 day but 2 is not an option to my house).

I would consider doing it as a group buy with a couple people but I sure as heck won't do it myself. Seems silly for the little benefit I imagine it brings.

This whole thing got me thinking about making my own juice addative by crushing and pasturizing fruit using low temp sous vide. I see people make F packs by boiling fruit but you lose/change flavor with high heat. The sous vide process would allow a low and slow pasteurization and potentially help retain the flavor profile. Sous vide wouldnt make a concentrate like boiling but it should help prevent flavor changes.

I might try some bench testing using different pre-bottling additives like concentrate and homemade juice.

 

[cmason1957]

What is it that your wine is missing that you hope Mega Purple will provide for you? Someone may have some other suggestions of things to try.

I have never used it and probably wouldn't, even if I could get it locally. To many stories about the "things" it adds to the mix.

If it's just color, given the negative press it has, I would just leave my wine a bit lighter.

 

[Brant]

What is it that your wine is missing that you hope Mega Purple will provide for you? Someone may have some other suggestions of things to try.

I have never used it and probably wouldn't, even if I could get it locally. To many stories about the "things" it adds to the mix.

If it's just color, given the negative press it has, I would just leave my wine a bit lighter.

It sounds like flavor profile is changed with it, not just color. Bigger fruit forward taste. Color is significantly less important to me.

Thinking about it, if concentrates are used post ferment, is there a specific sugar level needed to prevent spoilage? I realize it depends on the amount added and the starting ABV. I assume MP is just a non-alcohol juice concentrate and it's added at a very low ratio to a finished wine so the final ABV is essentially unaffected. I also assume any juice concentrate could be added post ferment but there would be a point where you would likely dilute ABV and/or open yourself up to spoilage. Any idea where that threshold exists? What a safe juice or concentrate addition volume is per gallon of wine?

 

[winemaker81]

Cost is prohibitive tho. Almost 400/gallon after adding on 3 day shipping (which he recommended 2 day but 2 is not an option to my house).

I found a source that was $125 USD/gallon, although I didn't figure in S&H. Once I saw the ratio and did the math, it was a no-go for me at any price. Not that I was seriously interested, but I like to think things through.

Thinking about it, if concentrates are used post ferment, is there a specific sugar level needed to prevent spoilage?

It's just sugar, regardless of the form, and the same rules apply. If you stabilize the wine, it won't ferment, and if you don't, it will.

The dosage I read is 46 ml to 23000 ml of wine (I wrote in ml instead of liters to make the magnitude of the different volumes clear). It's not going to add much sugar, but that little bit WILL change the flavor profile. You do not want to ferment it, unless you're just doing it for color.

And it's not going to drop the ABV by anything noticeable, e.g., if the before ABV is 12%, the after is 11.98%.

 

[NewfieMike]

Wow, what a great read.

Yes, I'm bringing this Mega Purple thread back from the dead. Don't judge me.

Thank you very much for brining this thread back. Really good discussion and lots of information for the newer winemakers like myself to digest. I also had no idea the additives wineries are using to achieve consistent results year in, year out.

 

[Rocktop]

A little twist on the Mega purple conversation. The excellent article below was recently posted in another thread.
Red Hybrid Grape Winemaking - WineMakerMag.com

One line stuck out to me...
As a home winemaker, I made many successful batches using red grape concentrate (1–4% of total must) sourced from wine kits, added to the must before fermentation...

As the writer is now a commercial winery they can't use concentrates, but I wonder how many wineries do actually rely on a little boost from wine kits to fill in the gaps in their wines. Fills the same needs as MP but far less expensive and more accessible....

RT

 

[winemaker81]

As the writer is now a commercial winery they can't use concentrates, but I wonder how many wineries do actually rely on a little boost from wine kits to fill in the gaps in their wines. Fills the same needs as MP but far less expensive and more accessible....

Commercial wineries can use concentrates, at least in the USA.

It makes sense to add concentrate to boost the must, as that increases brix a bit and adds body.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Mega purple is horrible stuff, and should be avoided at all costs produces horrible wines and it has some chemicals in it alongside grape extract. Nobody in Paso uses it above $15 price point.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

A little twist on the Mega purple conversation. The excellent article below was recently posted in another thread.
Red Hybrid Grape Winemaking - WineMakerMag.com

One line stuck out to me...
As a home winemaker, I made many successful batches using red grape concentrate (1–4% of total must) sourced from wine kits, added to the must before fermentation...

As the writer is now a commercial winery they can't use concentrates, but I wonder how many wineries do actually rely on a little boost from wine kits to fill in the gaps in their wines. Fills the same needs as MP but far less expensive and more accessible....

RT

A lot of things are added to wines that aren’t disclosed or spoken about.

 

[Jbu50]

Mega purple is horrible stuff, and should be avoided at all costs produces horrible wines and it has some chemicals in it alongside grape extract. Nobody in Paso uses it above $15 price point.

What's horrible about it? Most of the comments thus far about Mega Purple have been positive.

 

[ChuckD]

What's horrible about it?

Me too. I’ve never used it and likely never will but I’m curious about such a strong statement.

 

[sour_grapes]

I am VERY confident that I have consumed more than my fair share of MegaPurple, and yet I don't seem the worse for wear!

 

[Nebbiolo020]

I am VERY confident that I have consumed more than my fair share of MegaPurple, and yet I don't seem the worse for wear!

I know I have had wines with it and all of them have been rather poor, it’s just a bad product and the only people using it are trying to hide flaws in wines to get a better price for bad wine. Nobody is going to use it on a quality product tastes like skittles and bad fake grape candy. And In regards to it adding color just blend with actual grapes it’s a better option mega purple has no reason to exist.