Making "second" wine

[wildhair]

I was going to use 10# of Black Raspberries and 10# of red raspberries and make a 3 gallon batch of each this weekend. I was considering making a second "black & red" wine by combining the black and red raspberries, but I can't find a lot of info on making "second" wine. Any help or experience would be appreciated.

Do I need to add more yeast or will the yeast left in the fruit be enough? I read not to add peptic enzyme. Any other additives that should be eliminated or increased?

Obviously - I can't add Campden tablets or any boiling syrup - that would kill any yeast I was hoping to revive. I planned to use raw apple juice for the liquid, I'm guessing I should boil it to kill any bacteria or other unwanteds - then let it cool before adding it to the fruit, yes?

And if I start out with 10# each of the fruit - would combining the leftovers be enough to a make a 3 gal batch or just 2 gallons?

 

[salcoco]

normally second wine volume is 75% of the volume originally racked, for your 20lb of berry if you obtained 3 gallons of wine than the second wine volume would be 2 gallons. since you are using apple juice , I would not boil it but add SO2 powder to kill any bacteria just let it sit for 24 hours before adding to the second wine must. You will need to add sugar.I would measure sugar of apple juice and than add some to get to 20 brix. suggest this be before adding juice to second wine must, offline so to speak. the alcohol content of must will affect reading if mixed together.. normally you would also add acid but with the berry mix you have may not need any. I would ferment without and then adjust after fermentation once wine has cleared if needed. you will also not need any yeast. once sugar added to apple juice just add to must and stir daily. ferment will be very fast, couple of days at most.

 

[wildhair]

That about covers it! Thanks so much! I knew I'd have to add sugar to the juice - it's not super sweet. I thought the apple juice would give it more body, tho. Plus - I have extra apple juice. Sounds like I should have all this prepped & ready to go when the berries are pulled from the first batch.

 

[Scooter68]

Raspberries are not going to leave you much to work with. Every time I've used Raspberries or Blackberries for wine the only thing left are the seeds and cores of the berry. Unlike a lot of other fruits there's not really any "skins" left to use.

 

[wildhair]

I suspected that ~ so my plan was to steep the berries in the primary & not squeeze them. If all I end up with is seeds any way - then I'll forget it and just make a black & red raspberry with the rest of the fruit in the freezer. I have almost 20# of black and 15# of red.

 

[Scooter68]

My experience with wild black raspberries is that 5 lbs/gallon is plenty for strong flavor wine( I would feel wasteful I used 6 lbs per gallon). So you've got the makings of as much as 8 gallons of great wine.

 

[wildhair]

Not sure it they're wild - I bought them and planted them 20 years ago and they've been cranking out berries ever since. I've picked wild one - don't see any difference. I agree - 6# per gal is too much. I figured 2-3# per would be good - 9# to a 3 gal batch. I could go 8# and have some to combine..............

 

[Scooter68]

Made a batch with about 4 1/2 lbs + water and it was the first wine I made that truly had "Legs." Every time I racked it or poured a glass it was beautiful. Thought it was going to stain the carboy it clung so tight. I'd say 4lbs should be fine and still give you plenty for a mixed batch. Keeping in mind that I suspect the Black Raspberry flavor will overwhelm the Red Raspberry flavor easily.

Again keep us posted - new thread - when you start the batches. Always nice to see recipes and how others put their wines together. Learned a lot reading about others successes, and now-and-then the not so successful.

And yest sound like 'domestic' berries but who knows. Ours keep dying out in one place and popping up in another (17 acres 60A% Woods) so each year we have to hunt them down. Never get a large amount so I guess I should find a way to encourage their growth. Nice thing about Raspberries is they will spread out on their own. Blackberries, well they just go crazy here. Wife has torn out a lot and wants more removed - AND she's the one who picks them every year.

 

[Arne]

If you are adding apple juice I would highly recommend add pectic enzime. It will help break down the pectin in the apple so it will clear later. Also, I would bag the fruit to help when it comes time to remove it. Like salcoco says, just hit the juice with k-meta, if you boil it you can set the pectin and again it won't want to clear. Good luck with it, Arne.

 

[wildhair]

Thanks - I hadn't thought about the pectin in the apple juice, nor did I know boiling it would "set" the pectin. Glad I asked BEFORE I messed it up this time! Much appreciated.

 

[Scooter68]

As to the boiling issue, with raspberries there is no need to boil them. They break down quite fast in the fermentation process. Using a fruit bag will help catch the seeds and cores of the fruit but everything else will be gone in about 5-7 days of fermentation. That's one reason I have doubts about getting a second wine from raspberries or blackberries. With no skin to speak of when they break down they pretty much dissolve - and you have to crush them to get any juice out. Steaming or heating could break them down but that brings in the pectin issue. Think you'd be better off to save some whole berries for a mixed batch rather than attempting a second wine batch from them. Two pounds of black and three pounds of red would probably be a great mixed batch. (Or even a higher red - to black berry mix.)

 

[wildhair]

I think the recipe called for pouring the hot sugar water OVER the berries "to set the color and flavor". I wasn't going to boil the the berries themselves. But I agree - after 5 days in the Dragon Blood - there wasn't much left of the berries.
Upon closer examination of the freezer contents - it seems some of the berries have been turned into jam, so I have about 11# of black and <10# of red left. Dang it. I may have to make smaller batches of each.....
OR - make a batch of each and combine in the secondary?????

Recalculating.........

 

[Scooter68]

Looks like 2 x 2 gallon batches of each would be great. Don't you hate it when things disappear like that/

I'm pretty much forbidden to look through our upright freezer. I stand accused of making a mess. BUT last time I did i was able to sort out about 15 bags (2 cups per bag)of blueberries that needed to be used so that led me to a 3 gallon batch.

Good luck. Let us know how you work that mix out.

 

[wildhair]

I wish I could blame somebody else - I actually made the jam. LOL
Oh well, more berries in a few months.
I'll let ya know how it goes.

 

[wildhair]

Well, I decided to not make the "second" wine from the raspberries. Once I poured hot (not quite boiling) sugar water on them, the color washed out into the must in minutes leaving a slightly pink bag of raspberry mush.

Fortunately - I had decided ahead of time (based on the info I got here) to just make a smaller batch of red raspberry and black raspberry - so I had some berries left for a black & red raspberry wine.
Got all 3 started yesterday late afternoon, I'll pitch the yeast tonight.

And I decided to save the apple juice for my cranberry wine and the mixed mint wine. And maybe the Chamomile wine. But I will definitely add the Campden tablets to the juice instead of boiling it - thanks for that. Next year - I think I'll add the Campden tablets to the juice BEFORE I freeze it.

 

[Scooter68]

We live and learn. At least we hope to learn. That's one reason to make lots of notes on batches especially if you are trying something different or if things go weird. I've made a lot of mistakes but hopefully I don't repeat them. Using your hot sugar water probably put you ahead of the game for extracting flavors but with raspberries and blackberries they give it up pretty quickly without any heat. Now with berries that have skins, blueberries for example that might boost the extraction of flavors and colors. Just don't forget the pectic enzyme. Even late is better than forgetting it completely.

 

[wildhair]

Nope - I added the pectic enzyme - about 1/2 t per gal.
I had read that raspberries were pretty acidic, so I was surprised to see the ph on my black raspberry come in at 4.12. TA was .4%. So I added some acid blend and some tartaric acid and got it down to 3.78 ph. I'll check it again post ferment and see what happened. The red and red/black musts were in the 3.4 range.
btw - I ended using 4# of red to 3# of black on the berry mix.

 

[Scooter68]

4 to 3 Mix sounds good. My first Black Raspberry started at a pH of 3.67 bit on the high side but it came out fine.