Juice buckets vs Concentrate

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kuziwk

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Those of you that have done both, would you say that juice buckets age slower than concentrates? What about clearing...red wine kits/cencenteate will clear on their own, are juice buckets any different?
 

Chuck E

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Those of you that have done both, would you say that juice buckets age slower than concentrates? What about clearing...red wine kits/cencenteate will clear on their own, are juice buckets any different?
About the same in my opinion.
 

cmason1957

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I have never found much, if any, differences between wine kits and juice buckets. I think juice buckets end product might be a bit better than wine kits, probably due to putting juice buckets through MLF, while not doing that with wine kits.
 

jbo_c

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I’m with mason. I’ve done both and I’m not sure I could tell you the difference in a “fresh bucket” and a midrange kit.

I will say that I’ve found all of the En Primeur skins kits to be superior to the (admittedly few) buckets I’ve done.

Jbo
 

kuziwk

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So I picked up a sterile juice bucket, came in a bag just like a kit but just over 23 litres, it's not re-constituted. I dont think these are designed to go through MLF either. MLF though is a source for hangovers/ headaches due to the histamine and my allergies. I try to take it easy on commercial reds.
 

kuziwk

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I’m with mason. I’ve done both and I’m not sure I could tell you the difference in a “fresh bucket” and a midrange kit.

I will say that I’ve found all of the En Primeur skins kits to be superior to the (admittedly few) buckets I’ve done.

Jbo
I haven't done the en primeur kit yet, however I love the passport and cellar Craft lines. The juice bucket I got I ended up throwing some skins in for good measure aswell.
 

buzi

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I can get buckets for $50-60 and usually have skins on hand to mix in. For the price and quality I would go for buckets everytime. I have heard that the colors are not true due to the way the juices are processes and that the factories blend a bit of color back in. And I often wonder how much of the varietal I actually get, but again for the value I have never been disappointed. IMO a high end kit will blow a bucket out of the vat...but you are also paying a higher price.

I guess it all depends what you are looking for. Kits can also give you a wider varietal range and specific choice of location such as "stags leap" as opposed to "Californian" juice.

It is a great question for this forum. There is a lot of experience here in both arenas.
 

kuziwk

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I can get buckets for $50-60 and usually have skins on hand to mix in. For the price and quality I would go for buckets everytime. I have heard that the colors are not true due to the way the juices are processes and that the factories blend a bit of color back in. And I often wonder how much of the varietal I actually get, but again for the value I have never been disappointed. IMO a high end kit will blow a bucket out of the vat...but you are also paying a higher price.

I guess it all depends what you are looking for. Kits can also give you a wider varietal range and specific choice of location such as "stags leap" as opposed to "Californian" juice.

It is a great question for this forum. There is a lot of experience here in both arenas.
A new place opened up in Canada called vintners cellar, that's where I bought the juice bucket from. It's not a traditional juice bucket though, it came in a vacume sealed bag just like a kit and it was from Italy...I don't think it's just a traditional juice bucket as I think it's been acid balanced and yeast nutrient and what not already. The main benefit is the fact that it has the original water and nothing taken out. I suppose time will tell though, it was $125 for the bucket where a 16L premium kit with skins is typically $160 in my area.

I also don't get why kits get such a bad reputation, where else can you make wines from around the world any time of the year. I've been asked "yeah but you're not making it from those boring kits are you?".
 
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Chuck E

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[QUOTE="kuziwk, I also don't get why kits get such a bad reputation, where else can you make wines from around the world any time of the year. I've been asked "yeah but you're not making it from those boring kits are you?".[/QUOTE]

In my opinion, most people bottle their kits too quickly. Other people base their beliefs on tasting this young, quickly made wine versus a cheap commercial wine that has at least a year of age on it. You can make (& tweak) a kit into a very tasty wine if you spend the time with it.
 

franc1969

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It's not a traditional juice bucket though, it came in a vacume sealed bag just like a kit and it was from Italy...".
I an intrigued - so this is like the Mosti Mondiale buckets I see around? I would like to see the bucket label to try and find this, I want some of the Italian juice varieties but get a bit overwhelmed with volume in harvest season. I haven't had the space and carboys to run everything at once in the fall.
 

kuziwk

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[QUOTE="kuziwk, I also don't get why kits get such a bad reputation, where else can you make wines from around the world any time of the year. I've been asked "yeah but you're not making it from those boring kits are you?".
In my opinion, most people bottle their kits too quickly. Other people base their beliefs on tasting this young, quickly made wine versus a cheap commercial wine that has at least a year of age on it. You can make (& tweak) a kit into a very tasty wine if you spend the time with it.[/QUOTE]

I agree, we are in the age of instant gratification. Some complain of "kit" wine tastes without aging more than a few months. I'm up to 12 carboys with 10 full...some are almost ready for bottling with 1 year as the benchmark.
 

kuziwk

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I an intrigued - so this is like the Mosti Mondiale buckets I see around? I would like to see the bucket label to try and find this, I want some of the Italian juice varieties but get a bit overwhelmed with volume in harvest season. I haven't had the space and carboys to run everything at once in the fall.
I've never tried a mosti bucket, vintners cellar was the one that pioneered ferment on premesis apparently. I won't know if the wine is any good for a while though. Additionally, I did add cab sav skins which for the purest is not ideal. They have a higher end version of this wine/must apparently in a 16L with skins line, go figure it cost more than the one I got which is what they call "23L of 100% pure sterile juice". Who knows maybe I'll end up making both and comparing.

Are the mosti buckets pasteurized ? I'm assuming the process to make them "sterile" would have to involve some form of pasteurization.
 
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Swedeman

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I also don't get why kits get such a bad reputation, where else can you make wines from around the world any time of the year.
True that! Here in Sweden, you can't buy grapes and if you want to grow them yourself, you are basically stuck with Solaris and Rondo. The Solaris I have tried makes a drinkable white but I have yet to try a Rondo that I like. So kits is the only option if you want to make wine. Having a heavily taxed alcohol monopoly, who isn't focused on quality, doesn't make buying decent wine easy (tax per liter wine is between 3,3-5,5 $ depending on alcohol content) but it makes kits look good in comparison.
 

jbo_c

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I complain about a kit taste, but it has nothing to do with aging. Call it a house taste if you will, but there is a common flavor in all I’ve ever had that was from a kit - some more than others, but always there. But I like the hobby so I try to look past it or maybe around it.

I’ve decided to try not complaining about it. :)

Jbo
 

kuziwk

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I complain about a kit taste, but it has nothing to do with aging. Call it a house taste if you will, but there is a common flavor in all I’ve ever had that was from a kit - some more than others, but always there. But I like the hobby so I try to look past it or maybe around it.

I’ve decided to try not complaining about it. :)

Jbo
I just picked up another 23L juice bucket from vintners cellar. So I have three high end batches going, these two juice buckets and a passport 2020 dos Grenache (Spain/Australia). Other than the fact that the raisins they gave with this juice bucket tasted slightly stale, they were already in the primary before I realized the best before date was may 2018...oh well, I can’t imagine one 1/4 cup of stale raisins can make the wine bad. This one is a supposedly the highest quality kit they sell with skins, it’s a cab sav from washington state.
 

franc1969

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Are the mosti buckets pasteurized ? I'm assuming the process to make them "sterile" would have to involve some form of pasteurization.
I assume they are pasteurized, sterile filtering seems like it wouldn't be right. I haven't asked about them, just read the website info. I have them as a possibility, if I decide that they are a more predictable result then a Chilean bucket this spring. I know PI Wine imports Australian juice that is sterile- but is still kept cold.
 

kuziwk

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I assume they are pasteurized, sterile filtering seems like it wouldn't be right. I haven't asked about them, just read the website info. I have them as a possibility, if I decide that they are a more predictable result then a Chilean bucket this spring. I know PI Wine imports Australian juice that is sterile- but is still kept cold.
Yes I believe it’s a flash pasteurization process that rapidly cools the wine before the heat can oxidize or cook the wine. Still too early to tell if these are any good but I will update everyone when and if things start looking promising. The Washington bucket was $200 so i have high hopes for this one, I’m looking forward to a more vegetal character and less fruit.
 
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jsbeckton

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IMO they are much different.

I’ve made about 15 premium kits (WE, RJS and CC) and while the WE are the worst they almost all have what I perceive as a “jammy” aftertaste but good body. Some are 4 years old now.

I have also made 4 juice buckets. The first 2 I made with just the juice but added ferm and finishing tannins. I found them to be thin and basically undrinkable.

The next 2 buckets I added to freshly pressed skins from all grape batches, also with same tannin additions. These I found to be much much better but still a bit thin compared to the AG batches.

My conclusions (personally)
-pretty much done with kits
-buckets added to skins can be a cheap way to double your batch to get something better than any kit but not quite the potential of AG
-I wish I had switched to all grape sooner
 

kuziwk

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IMO they are much different.

I’ve made about 15 premium kits (WE, RJS and CC) and while the WE are the worst they almost all have what I perceive as a “jammy” aftertaste but good body. Some are 4 years old now.

I have also made 4 juice buckets. The first 2 I made with just the juice but added ferm and finishing tannins. I found them to be thin and basically undrinkable.

The next 2 buckets I added to freshly pressed skins from all grape batches, also with same tannin additions. These I found to be much much better but still a bit thin compared to the AG batches.

My conclusions (personally)
-pretty much done with kits
-buckets added to skins can be a cheap way to double your batch to get something better than any kit but not quite the potential of AG
I’m assuming AG is all grape, lol. What do you mean by doubling your batch?
 
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