I've done the research! (Please Help)

Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum

Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:

MrNovice

Junior
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Hello,


Since I am new to all this, I will be experimenting with different types of store-bought juices (less hassle, and so on). Preferably 100% juice without preservatives. I will be trying out all sorts of different methods. Some methods will be a mixture of recipe parts taken from different recipes found on the Internet, and combined with the purpose of making something new. Here is an example:


"2 Tropicana 100% Pure and Natural Orange Juice (not from concentrate and no pulp)"

Each container...

- 1.89L
- 174g sugar

Extras...

- 1-2lbs sugar
- 1/4 packet of good quality wine/champagne yeast (I have yet to buy this)
- homemade yeast nourishment (several ingredients - undecided)

Process...

The primary fermentation phase will begin in its original container after an extra cup of sugar is added to the "batch" bringing the sugar content to 366g. At this point, the yeast starter(1/4 yeast packet), after being properly prepared, will be added to the batch to officially start the fermentation process. The only thing between the air inside and the air outside will be a thin piece of fabric fastened by a rubber band at the base of the container's opening (reason for this is simple: yeast needs airs to breed). 1/2 a cup of sugar will be added every 12hrs for 1-3 days. At the end of the primary fermentation phase, more sugar will be added and an airlock will be installed, commencing the secondary fermentation phase. I will let everything sit as it is for several days, or until MOST of the activity has calmed down. At this point, I will transfer the contents of the said batch with the contents of its "twin batch" into a sanitized gallon-sized-jar. More sugar will be added along with a homemade nutrient pouch, which will be anchored to the bottom of the jar, and the whole thing will once again be airlock-ed and covered with a few blankets for the sake of darkness and warmth -- I thought of using an electric blanket and a thermometer but I'll probably just end up purchasing a high alcohol producing yeast that works well at cool temperatures (for instance, in the basement). This will be the start of the third and final fermentation phase. After a few weeks go by and all is calm, the "wine" will be filtered, tasted, and if kosher, stored in several old beer bottles (the kind with resealable caps) for aging. After this is done, and based on the test-taste, the wine will be ready to drink. I will test this wine at later and later dates to see how the aging process affects it.


Do I have a hydrometer? Unfortunately no. I will be taste-testing and basically guessing as to what the alcohol content is on my first few tries at this. Eventually, I'll get one, once I become more experienced and my wine making process becomes refined.


That's the gist of it. Time for a few questions. I hope you all are more knowledgeable than I am when it comes to wine making, and so on. Rather than showing me an article which repeats that which I've read over and over again, please help me by showing me something which has specific answers to my specific problems/questions. Or, better yet, please provide those answers yourself. Most appreciated. Thank you for your time and patience.


My QUESTIONS:

1. If 1 gallon of water + 3lbs of sugar produces 10%alc., then 6lbs of sugar is needed if one aims to produce 20%alc., right? (Note: lets assume that the yeast is capable of surviving in 25%-30%alc., first) If all that is true, then that would mean, 750g sugar + 1L water/juice = 10%alc. Is the math at least correct? Please feel free to make corrections if you know better. Also, I know that the more yeast there is, the more sugar these little critters metabolize but that probably wouldn't make a big difference, would it?

2. How many grams of sugar per liter can I safely combine without the sugar acting as a preservative, and thereby, leading to an unfavorable environment for the yeast to grow and thrive in?

3. On the one hand, the air outside the enclosure could convert the alcohol into an acid (making vinegar), but on the other hand, air is needed for the yeast to multiply. So, how long does the primary fermentation last? (To me, I understand the primary fermentation phase to be the part of the fermentation process which exposes the inside air with the outside air. Past this, secondary phase begins...)

4. This is in reference to the yeast nutrient pouch. Let's say, I'm cheap and I want to make my own, what do I use? From what I've gathered, banana skins, orange peels, lemon juice, raisins, even a vitamin supplement can be added to boost the potential of the yeast. I'm thinking that a combination of these will be sufficient. But at what amount/combination? Perhaps there's another possibly better natural source?

I had a few other questions in mind. About distillation, pectin, methanol, fusel oils, and so on... But I won't go into that right now because I've read that these little unwanted nasties are nothing to be concerned about unless one is making wine on a larger scale. But even then, those things come in low quantities. I can't be certain, though, but I do know that some of the best wines in the history of wine-making have been made in the olden days without the latest "additives." I'm sure that all these "things" have been invented to make life easier and safer - so they sell - but they're also a source of income for the parties involved. Anyway, my point is, they don't seem to be necessary in order to make a decent alcoholic beverage. If your going to post on this thread to offer such advice (about buying the latest... blah!), then please don't post because I'm not interested (not at this stage). Basically, I'm here to get specific info pertaining to my questions and fermentation process and to find out a little more about how they made wine in the olden days with natural sources. This may one day become a science to me, and so, I may start using the latest thing, but for now, I'd like to learn without it.

I'll probably get things started in a few days after I buy some good quality yeast. I've got bakers yeast, but I've read from several sources that this doesn't produce high quality alcohol. I could try wild yeast, but I don't want to go too far back into history! (heh)

Anyway, if I think of anything else, I'll post. Hopefully, there will be a collection of highly knowledgeable responses when I return within the next few days.


Happy wine making everyone!!!

MrNovice
 

Wade E

Premium
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
33,224
Reaction score
277
Me thinks you should get a hydrometer! They are cheap and wll tell you more then anyone can tell you on a forum!
 

rawlus

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2009
Messages
349
Reaction score
2
yeast nutrient and yeast energizer are not the same thing. the primary objective of a yeast nutrient or yeast energizer is to provide nitrogen to the yeast, usually in the form of potassium. yeast nutrient is primarily DAP which produces free nitrogen. if you are not fermenting grapes, then a yeast energizer is often used as it provides many more trace elements and nutrients in addition to DAP. I have not seen lemon juice, orange peels, coffee grounds, raisins or chewable vitamins used as yeast nutrients or energizers. although, there are many who experiment and through trial and error sometimes find something that seems to work.

your plan sounds very ambitious! i would suggest starting with known recipes and altering just one element to see the effect of that elemental change. if you sort of pick and choose here and there, you will have a hard time determining what changes affected what.. that is, if you really want to learn the process.

the sugar calculations you are using to determine potential alcohol can be difficult because you do not know precisely the sugar content already in the juice or fruit in most cases. you know only that there is sugar of some level.

primary fermentation is going to be a factor of the must you're working with, the temp of that must, the yeast you're using, the health of that yeast, the Ph and acidity of the must, and a number of magical factors unknowable and unpredictable. primary should be 5-7 days or so when everything is in the zone, but some make it through quicker and some take longer. it also depends on what you consider primary completion, usually this is a specific gravity number, which you will be unable to assess.

making vinegar is generally a side effect of poor sanitation, unless the aim for vinegar is intentional. it is a bacterial innoculation, not exposure to air in and of itself. if you are making wine from fresh fruit, k-meta should be used to kill any lingering vinegar bacteria prior to fermentation - it only takes one acetobacter to contaminate an entire batch of wine.
 

Green Mountains

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
879
Reaction score
2
Hydrometer for sure.

Don't try learning everything at once. The good people here will certainly help you along the way but there's nothing more beneficial than experience. My advice would be; pick a recipe you like from this forum or anywhere else, ensure sanitation is spot on, follow the recipe to a 't' in testing and adjusting the acid level and adjusting the starting specific gravity. The hydrometer will show you where you are in the fermentation process helping you to judge when to take your next steps and also allow you to gauge the ending alcohol content.

In the olden days they may not have had the same tools we now have, but they had generations of proving out recipes.


Have fun with it but take the baby steps necessary.
 

MrNovice

Junior
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
A few questions for the knowledgeable....


1. What would happen to a wine if I reheat it to 70-80 degrees after it has been sitting in the fridge for 24hrs (any potential problems)? (I'm referring to a a 3 day old primary fermentation that has been refrigerated for a 24 hour period. It is still sweet and the yeast has become dormant.)

2. What would you use in place of yeast nutrient/energizer (for non-grape wines)? I read somewhere that "fruit purees" are a good substitute (not as good, but certainly better that nothing.). If so, how would I go about making one of these (what are the best ingredients to use)? ...Raisins, etc?

3. Is there a way to convert baker's yeast (readily available) into something similar to wine yeast (higher alcohol, etc)? Also, I would like to lose the bread-like quality of it. Any ideas?

4. This question is about aeration and oxidation. From what I have read, the must should be aerated, but as soon as there is alcohol in the must, the aeration may lead to oxidation... Is this true? By the way, I cannot get any Campden tablets, so what can I do or use in place of it (perhaps something from a grocery store)?

5. Should I filter my wine or will that just oxidize it (since I have no SO2)? What if I filter it before I begin the secondary fermentation process? One more thing, is the release of CO2 a natural anti-oxidizer?

6. How many grams (or pounds) of sugar (table sugar) would I have to use to come out to 10% alcohol per liter?


I hope there is someone who can provide answers to my questions. By the way, let's assume that it is impossible for me to get all the typical chemicals (and other stuff) that makes wine-making so much easier. Thank you for your time and patience.


PS: I will not be purchasing anything over the Internet.
 

djrockinsteve

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
4,911
Reaction score
144
#1 Yes buy a Hydrometer, their cheap and with care will last a lifetime and provide valuable information.

You may want to buy the book "The Home Winemaker's Companion" by Gene Spaziani, It will answer many questions and is easy to comprehend.

Those here on this website can greatly help you. Wine making can be simple and very enjoying.
 

NSwiner

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
672
Reaction score
4
Here's a suggestion maybe you should wait to make your wine until you have all the proper basic tools needed . Right now I'm waiting until I get something to test the acid level before I attempt making any wine , since It seems I need to know this level to make wine properly .
 

NSwiner

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
672
Reaction score
4
A few questions for the knowledgeable....


1. What would happen to a wine if I reheat it to 70-80 degrees after it has been sitting in the fridge for 24hrs (any potential problems)? (I'm referring to a a 3 day old primary fermentation that has been refrigerated for a 24 hour period. It is still sweet and the yeast has become dormant.)



PS: I will not be purchasing anything over the Internet.
Why would you have it in the fridge ????
 
Last edited:

Tom

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
11,356
Reaction score
99
Ditto;
Were you planning on stopping fermentation? 3 days in a primary would not ferment that much.
Right not the yeasst is dorment. Let it naturally warm up.
Need more info like what is it ...
 

non-grapenut

Fruit Fears Me
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
400
Reaction score
4
If you refuse to buy yeast nutrient or energizer via internet or retailer, you can crush up vitamin B1. If you use baker's yeast, you will net a low alcohol wine...soda-hol, we call it here in the stix. Use the internet to find the nearest wine supply retailer and take a roadtrip...it will be like a holiday for you and you will be able to see all the possibilities for future projects and, hopefully, make friends with the retailer to help give you first-hand tips...and, just as the others said, stop thinking so far ahead...your FIRST GOAL should be to get a fermentation going...then check in, if need be. And, hell yes, get a hydrometer. You will never know the alcohol content of your wine if you do not, even with conversion charts because each fruit nets different sugar levels.
 

Torch404

Moderator
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
329
Reaction score
0
I went the same way and did not have a hydrometer at first. Yes those wines turned out fine, but I'm really bummed because I know nothing about them. My notes were pretty limited because I didn't know what to write down. So I have this mystery wine. You should get a hydrometer!

It seems to me like you might be over thinking your first batch. You might want to just do a welch's grape juice recipe without nutrients or a JAO mead which uses bread yeast. Once you get the basic process out of the way then you can move on to worrying about oxidation and nutrient mixes.

Welcome and good luck!
 

St Allie

Tech Administrator
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
2,879
Reaction score
14
A few questions for the knowledgeable....


1. What would happen to a wine if I reheat it to 70-80 degrees after it has been sitting in the fridge for 24hrs (any potential problems)? (I'm referring to a a 3 day old primary fermentation that has been refrigerated for a 24 hour period. It is still sweet and the yeast has become dormant.)

2. What would you use in place of yeast nutrient/energizer (for non-grape wines)? I read somewhere that "fruit purees" are a good substitute (not as good, but certainly better that nothing.). If so, how would I go about making one of these (what are the best ingredients to use)? ...Raisins, etc?

3. Is there a way to convert baker's yeast (readily available) into something similar to wine yeast (higher alcohol, etc)? Also, I would like to lose the bread-like quality of it. Any ideas?

4. This question is about aeration and oxidation. From what I have read, the must should be aerated, but as soon as there is alcohol in the must, the aeration may lead to oxidation... Is this true? By the way, I cannot get any Campden tablets, so what can I do or use in place of it (perhaps something from a grocery store)?

5. Should I filter my wine or will that just oxidize it (since I have no SO2)? What if I filter it before I begin the secondary fermentation process? One more thing, is the release of CO2 a natural anti-oxidizer?

6. How many grams (or pounds) of sugar (table sugar) would I have to use to come out to 10% alcohol per liter?


I hope there is someone who can provide answers to my questions. By the way, let's assume that it is impossible for me to get all the typical chemicals (and other stuff) that makes wine-making so much easier. Thank you for your time and patience.


PS: I will not be purchasing anything over the Internet.
gee... you sure have a lot of technical questions, for someone that has no intention of buying any equipment or chemicals.

Have you tried google?

I don't want to rain on anyones parade ..

In my opinion, this whole post reeks of someone "pulling our collective leg"


Allie
 

Torch404

Moderator
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
329
Reaction score
0
gee... you sure have a lot of technical questions, for someone that has no intention of buying any equipment or chemicals.

In my opinion, this whole post reeks of someone "pulling our collective leg"


Allie
Strangely enough his 2nd post has also been word for word posted on a UK winemaking board by Mr Novice. It was his first post there and his second here.
 

St Allie

Tech Administrator
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
2,879
Reaction score
14
Strangely enough his 2nd post has also been word for word posted on a UK winemaking board by Mr Novice. It was his first post there and his second here.
same questions posted here
http://www.brew-it-yourself.co.uk/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=88715&sid=034b6533228d6e8f051c113afcb52428

and here

http://www.brew-wineforum.com/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=12&MessageID=140828

Unless MrNovice has some point in posting, other than being a tyrekicker, (and note he has not responded to the lovely, helpful people on the other forums.)

He is invited to personally message Wade or myself, regarding this. Until then, this message thread is temporarily closed.

Allie
 
Top