Homemade vs. Commercial and what I am doing to close the gap

Discussion in 'General Wine Making Forum' started by NorCal, Nov 1, 2019.

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  1. Jan 21, 2020 #101

    mainshipfred

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    FWIW, I just weighed a few 1/4 tsp of K-meta and the average was 1.95 grams. Using Fermcalc with an initial SO2 of 0, 1.95 grams of K-meta and 6 gallons it took the SO2 to above 50 ppm. If one were to use the 1/4 tsp method and bulk aged for a year using every three months of racking and sulfiting it would be over 200 unless something changes when it becomes bound. This does not take into consideration pre ferment additions or that given off by fermentation itself. Again I'm not sure about what happens when it becomes bound.
     
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  2. Jan 21, 2020 #102

    NorCal

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    Yes, we are talking total SO2 (not free SO2) not exceeding 200ppm, including any pre-fermentation additions. His point is that above that level that the sulfur additions influence the wines taste in a negative way.

    He did not speak specifically to whites, but with the pH, it would certainly be below the reds. Interesting to note that they barrel age their whites for 10 months, mostly neutral French oak.
     
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  3. Jan 21, 2020 #103

    mainshipfred

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    I realize everyone doesn't have the means to measure SO2 but I always thought the 1/4 tsp method was an over kill. especially if aging in glass. As far as aging whites in barrels I posted in another thread I neutralized a barrel specifically for whites. I've had the Viognier in it for about 2.5 months and it's quite nice. As much as I would like to leave it there until spring I have another I would like put in so probably 3 months each. That is interesting though since except for Chardonny's I believe most wineries age their whites in SS.
     
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  4. Jan 21, 2020 #104

    mainshipfred

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    Did the topic of TA ever come up or do they only speak of pH.
     
  5. Jan 21, 2020 #105

    4score

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    Congratulations on your success at the San Francisco Chronicle Competition. That's fantastic.
     
  6. Jan 21, 2020 #106

    4score

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    200 ppm isn't that high for me when trying to baby-sit 4.0 pH wine for > 18 months. We've been adjusting to 3.6 -3.7, but need to take our foot of the SO2 pedal a bit. 50 ppm was a common add. Going to aim for 20-30 going forward.
     
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  7. Jan 21, 2020 #107

    stickman

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    I previously posted part of an article about SO2 in this thread, it confirms much of what is being said about SO2 here. Several points were made in the article, but the primary one was that the molecular so2 charts shouldn't be followed with high pH wines; the recommendation is 20 to 30ppm free during bulk aging. The point about the 200ppm total so2 was also made.

    https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/high-ph-after-mlf.70626/
     
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  8. Jan 21, 2020 #108

    Ajmassa

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    I initially got the idea to adjust down to under 3.6 without regard for TA from that one interview on the winemaking podcast. Remember that? That winemaker was saying he still measures it at crush but doesn’t factor into his decision making at all. Even when questioned further he doubled down- “3.6 or under. No exceptions.”
    Now with multiple reliable sources I’m stoked to confidently make aggressive adjustments w/o second guessing it.

    Btw, since my NaOh expired year ago I haven’t replaced or tested TA at all and it’s been kinda nice.
     
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  9. Jan 21, 2020 #109

    mainshipfred

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    I was just curious since all the commercial guys I know don't deal with TA.
     
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  10. Jan 21, 2020 #110

    stickman

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    I also posted a previous article regarding the TA issue. We have to keep in mind the context here, the type of grapes, and where the grapes are grown etc., more times than not, in California, the mature grapes that come in with high pH often are also high in potassium, so most of the tartaric acid added to achieve say a 3.6 pH, ends up eventually precipitating out as potassium bitartrate. This method, adjusting down to 3.5 to 3.6 pH when needed, has worked for me with grape must from California.

    I don't have experience with grapes other than California or Washington, but reportedly some grapes can have issues with high malic acid causing the high pH, either because of the variety or because of cool climate and harvest conditions, under ripe fruit etc., in this case, adding acid to lower the pH would probably be the wrong thing to do.
     
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  11. Jan 21, 2020 #111

    Ajmassa

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    Very interesting. I knew you were dialed into the scene down there but I didn’t realize you talked shop that far in detail. Or that the local Maryland winemakers are also not dealing with TA. I actually thought it was somewhat of a faux pas. Though it seems to be more status-quo then I realized. These guys in Amador, Sebastiani Vineyards & Winery in Sonoma, the Maryland winemakers etc etc.
     
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  12. Jan 21, 2020 #112

    mainshipfred

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    I'm actually in Northern Virginia at the foot hills of the Blue Ridge and Bull Run Mountains.
     
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  13. Jan 21, 2020 #113

    Boatboy24

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    Thanks @NorCal, @mainshipfred, @Ajmassa, @4score, et al. I had 200ppm free in my head and just couldn't get my brain around that high a number. 200 in total makes so much more sense. :slp
     
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  14. Jan 22, 2020 #114

    jsbeckton

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    Great stuff! Any mention on length of the cold soak or if they add any enzymes during this period?

    It was mentioned that fermentation temps were a big factor. Maybe I missed it but did they say what those temps were (only made not of the cold soak temp above).

    Thanks again for passing all this great stuff on!
     
  15. Jan 22, 2020 #115

    NorCal

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    I specifically asked about TA and he said that he knows what it is, because it comes on the panel from the lab, however he doesn’t take it into account when making pre-ferment adjustments, only pH.
     
  16. Jan 22, 2020 #116

    NorCal

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    Cold soaks 3-5 days (that I remember) and I don’t recall discussing peak temps, only that they warm up to enable fermentation. Maybe @4score can recall if it was mentioned.
     
  17. Jan 22, 2020 #117

    NCWC

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    Whites wines a lot less here is the table for red and white. I personally would never go over 63 no matter the pH.
    Table
    pH Desired So2
    2.90 11
    3.00 13
    3.10 16
    3.20 21
    3.30 26
    3.40 32
    3.50 40
    3.60 50
    3.70 63
    3.80 79
    3.90 99
    4.00 125
     
  18. Jan 22, 2020 #118

    Rice_Guy

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    Just a thought but you may want some business cards with “consultant”
    A very interesting thread! Glad you got in. THANKS!
     
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  19. Jan 22, 2020 #119

    jburtner

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    This is awesome and thanks for sharing! Interesting that no concern regarding TA was indicated. Was there an upper TA limit discussed at all WRT getting pH down to 3.6 range pre-AF?

    Cheers,
    johann
     
  20. Jan 22, 2020 #120

    NorCal

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    TA wasn't discussed, besides it not being a factor they take into account during their wine making. Perhaps this is due to the nature of the fruit in our region, where the fruit always ripens, but maintaining acidity is the challenge.
     

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