Head space in 5 gal carboy

Discussion in 'Beginners Wine Making Forum' started by 1stfinger, Jul 18, 2015.

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  1. Feb 12, 2019 #21

    Stressbaby

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    The one I've seen was developed by a guy named Wensi Peng who lives in Canada. He posts all the time on the FB Home Winemaking site, I've never seen him post here. Video: In the comments someone says this has already been commercialized, so there are probably other types out there.
     
  2. Feb 12, 2019 #22

    vacuumpumpman

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    I can't believe I developed the same thing over 7 years ago - take a look = https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/carboy-air-space-bladder-trial-version.18124/
     
  3. Feb 13, 2019 #23

    Rice_Guy

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    Last summer I ordered several sizes of LDPE cubes (cubitainer) for variable gallons racking. Sales lit says they have some O2 penetration so they may perform like an oak barrel, TBD. - They gosh down so the head space is low (40 or 50ml) and a rubber cork will keep it at that level 5 months.
    I like em in process as moving 5 gallons to a friends house, or as a filter receiver, or for back sweetening, , , final opinion is out as a fermentation carboy.
     
  4. Feb 13, 2019 #24

    cmason1957

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    How do they act like an oak barrel? Not sure I see that. Don't you put these into your carboy and then put a bung. When I think act like a barrel, I would think they would have to contact the air.
     
  5. Feb 13, 2019 #25

    Ajmassa5983

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    Apparently the type of plastic used for some of these things, the cube container/flextank, is somehow o2 permeable to a degree. Not enough to cause evaporation, but allegedly enough to benefit the wine. *they say
     
  6. Feb 13, 2019 #26

    cmason1957

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    Oh, I see, I was (yet again, mostly normal) confused. These are plastic containers / flextanks. I misunderstood and thought they were something to be added to a container. DOHHHHHH!!!!!!

    I think what confused me is the LDPE. I'm not sure that is the correct designation for flextanks for wine, but who knows. My mistake. Let's blame it on the wine tasting this afternoon.
     
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  7. Feb 13, 2019 #27

    ksw

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    View attachment 53288 View attachment 53289 View attachment 53290 View attachment 53291
    I also thought the suction bulb was to rigid for long term aging . So I took the Head Space Eliminator one step further and replaced the suction bulb with a cheap vacuum gauge from ( amazon $ 8.70 ) and a silicon applicator adapter . Now I know how much vacuum is in my head space at all time . I made 2 so far , 1 has zero leakage in 3 weeks holding at 17 inches and the other one has a few inches a day leakage .
     
  8. Feb 13, 2019 #28

    ksw

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  9. Feb 13, 2019 #29

    Ajmassa5983

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    Nice idea. I might steal it. Will help me figure out a little issue. I realized recently that demijohns with spigots can’t hold the vacuum as is.
    I was using the standard HE setup with the bulb and it was losing the deflation within minutes. When pump was running I noticed the valve also had a suction. I made sure it was tightly closed and still the same.
    The standard demijohn spigots are metal and good quality. I haven’t tried yet but thinking a little rubber cap is needed so the vacuum holds. I normally don’t use the bulb, so I realized this from dumb luck. Luckily I only use it for very short term use anyway.
     
  10. Feb 13, 2019 #30

    Rice_Guy

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    825518F4-1176-465C-8A05-26E1B97CC661.jpeg
    There is some oxygen vapor transmission with this plastic. That noted the company I worked for used to use 20 mil LDPE plastic liners on 1000 lb totes of low /6% moisture ingredient and give it a year shelf life so I am not too concerned. Ask me again when this is a year old.
    Photo 20 liter (2.5 gallon) Cubitainer
     
  11. Feb 13, 2019 #31

    vacuumpumpman

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    I did not have much luck to find vacuum gauges that would hold vacuum for even short term use. I initially started out using a vacuum gauge, Please keep me informed - good luck

    I found that even the check valve will also leak over time - that is why I supply a cap to cause a air tight seal over the valve.
     
  12. Feb 14, 2019 #32

    ksw

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    I also was wondering if I could use a softer stopper like a ( double drilled silicon stopper ) to get a better vacuum seal around the carboy neck and stopper . My feeling is that my weak point is around the stopper and carboy neck . Time will tell
     
  13. Feb 14, 2019 #33

    Rice_Guy

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    Steve, the issue usually is the thread, , what I do with my Gage is silicone tubing. First a size that fits 1/8 pipe thread and then another matching ID (maybe .5 mm wall) over that to snug down the bottom layer. Sounds like I should test it long term on a flask.

    I also found the check valve did not hold, eventually wanted to replace it with a plastic valve with barbs on both ends. Push fittings would probably also do the same with rigid tubing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
  14. Feb 14, 2019 #34

    Rice_Guy

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    There is a neat product at Home Depot called (silicon) fusion tape. It will stretch to any shape (as a valve stem that drips) seals against itself and all surfaces I have tried. It will stop any leakage with a clean rubber stopper.
     
  15. Feb 14, 2019 #35

    vacuumpumpman

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    I also found the check valve did not hold, eventually wanted to replace it with a plastic valve with barbs on both ends. Push fittings would probably also do the same with rigid tubing.[/QUOTE]

    The kit comes with vinyl caps to cover the ends of the valves for any chance of leakage - I even throw in an extra one in each package. (because some of customers were putting them on too far and had issues removing them)

    Did you have these on - when the check valve would not hold ?
     
  16. Feb 14, 2019 #36

    ksw

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    I have the caps on both of mine . I only push the caps on until the first barb .
    One gauge set-up has been holding for 3 weeks at 17 '' inches doesn't move at all , the other one
    moves about 1 or 2 inches a day . I'll wait till it gets below 5 inches and then try to reseal it again .
     
  17. Feb 14, 2019 #37

    Stressbaby

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    In theory, you could connect them all together, attach to a single pump, add a switch which kicks on whenever the pressure rises to 0.5Atm and off at 0.2Atm, and just leave it on. :)
     
  18. Feb 14, 2019 #38

    StToddy

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    Really like the gauge idea. Curious if using a brass hose fitting connector with 1/4" NPT Female and hose barb would work instead of the RTV silicone applicator? Because there is no graduated decrease in diameter the question may be what size hose barb would fit the stopper hole (e.g. in Steve's HSE kit stoppers)? 1/4" Barb?
     
  19. Feb 15, 2019 #39

    vacuumpumpman

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    Please let me know if I should go back and possibly redesign the headspace eliminator ? I have tried alot of the things you all are talking about - Originally all Daisy chained together - vacuum gauge attached

    I wanted to make something that would help the average winemaker - and be reasonable in price as well. I believe at a going rate of 12 dollars for all that is included is pretty fair( custom drilled 2 hole pure gum stopper - 1 way check valve - vinyl cap - bulb - literature and hose adapter).

    I am up for all suggestions - Thanks in advance.
     
  20. Feb 15, 2019 #40

    Ajmassa5983

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    Ehhh. I wouldn’t change a thing. Home winemakers are all DIY’rs by nature. So convos to rig/tweak something up is gonna happen regardless. And some interesting ideas been said.
    I think they are great as is. I don’t use em for long term tho. Just few days-week tops. Headspace eliminators are a great tool if needed. But don’t want it to be a crutch and be ok with headspace.
     

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